Sickening...

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Hm.. yeah, I guess I do get misunderstood a lot. I'm not very good at wording things sometimes, that's all. We're not all as flashy with words as some of you brainboxes! I didn't really mean to piss anyone off though, sorry if it came across like that.

 

Both are abominable sexual practices. Actually, for a more direct comparison, one of the chapters that refers to homosexuality also condemns incest and beastiality.

How is it that the more positive aspects, like forgiveness of sins, the power to change, and the teachings on how we ought to live our lives (and not just the parts that start with "Thou shalt not...") are cast aside when someone has an axe to grind.

There's more to it than just "going against God's word", but nobody wants to look into that...

Islam has Al Queda, we have these jackasses. I could use some of the things I've seen here to say the same about Aetheism...

Flap your gums long enough and someone will listen...

That's how it really seems.

There is a significant movement for change, and I understand that. I just don't think all the changes that are proposed are really good to make...

I fail to see how supporting someone in a sinful course of action is hurting or victimizing. I'm not advocating violence against them, but I also don't want society around me warped such that what is evil is now accepted. Sometimes it feels like some here want my faith trodden down and victimized itself...

No, it's just that what's considered bad gets more attention than the good. But isn't it that way in society? What percentage of news casts are about good things and how much is accidents, terrorism, war, crime?

Only the ones that neglect the part about Christ dying on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins. Basically only the Christians that forget about why we actually have our religion in the first place...

We use the same source, but they only take parts of it. At least some of us understand more of it than others...

It's the sin I don't approve of. Without specific examples, any positives are harder to find. A good friend of mine was gay. Even though I didn't see him much after I returned to church, and he died in a car accident a couple years ago, I remember him more for his humour and his intriguing take on the world, not his homosexuality.

I suspect that the more you became frustrated with my views, it became harder to differentiate between me and these jackasses...

I'll admit he is better at this than I am...

The point is that he speaks his piece. What seperates me from Chev is his proficiency with such sharing...

You'd be surprised how easy it is to piss someone off anymore...

 

Doesn't change the fact that non-Christians will go to hell according to Christianity. Jews? Going to hell. Muslims? Going to hell. Hindus? Going to hell. Bhudists? Going to hell. Agnostics? Going to hell. Athiests? Going to hell. It's so easy for this idea to be twisted and warped into an excuse to harangue and heckle those types of people because in order to be a Christian you must actually believe that God is real, God likes some things and he dislikes other things and in order to be a good servant/worshipper of God one must like the things He likes and dislike the things He dislikes.

What is evil... that's a sacry notion that you'd call something evil and I think this was in reguards to defending the views of this mad family that homosexuality, divorce and such is 'evil'.

Although I don't agree with Barmy comparing NOG and Gnaff to that damn mad family-cult thing I do agree with his sentiments that religion (especially the religions from Abraham -- Jewish[To a very small extent compared to its younger cousins], Christian and Muslim beliefs) is causing far too much harm in this world. There are some religions that, although I don't follow, I respect and hold no ill towards but sadly they are few in number compared to those two big powerful ones: Christianity and Islam.

The main reason for these religions being at the forefront of conflict is that their dogmas deny other religions' authenticity. They basically scream "We're right, you're wrong." and there's no easier way to start a fight than to hold that ideal as part of the very core of the religion. Followers of that religion are divine, blessed and good, those that don't are misguided, fools and/or evil. Total and utter arrogance. And people wonder why those religions cop so much flack, trust me... they started it.

 

Barmy, I really dont think you need to apologize. For here we have the talk of the abominable, the evil and the warped - nothing of which is meant to hurt or victimize anyone, of course.

For some, their chosen religion makes it necessary to abandon all respect and be turned against others. And some find meaning in their religion, but leave others to their own devices.

 

So much to say, so little time. Barmy, your original post worries me, your second post worries me even more, but your third does seem to show hope. You seem to be comparing Gnarff and I to these people because we use the same 'supporting documents' (i.e. the Bible). That does not mean we are the same by any means. Hitler used many of the same philosophical texts the Founding Fathers used, that's meaningless. In the end, you have to look at what we teach, not just what sources we use for support.

For example:
HOMOSEXUALITY: I believe it is a sin and an addiction and people who practice it should be helped (only with their co-operation) to overcome it. These people appear to believe it is an abomination and a disease and anyone who practices it is likewise and should be hated.

PEDOPHELIA: I believe much the same here as I do for homosexuality, but, since it can and does harm innocents, therapy can be forced on people. I bet these people believe much the same on this topic as they do on homosexuality.

I compare homosexuality to pedophelia because they have similarities. They are both distortions of the 'natural' sexual drive (take that as you will). Like any analogy, however, this one is far from perfect and there are a lot of differences between the two.

You want me to prove how I'm different from those people? Ok, here it is, easy to understand. I will NEVER teach that God hates a person, nor will I EVER say that you should hate a person. In fact, you should NEVER hate ANYONE regardless of what they do, who they are, where they are from, what they believe, or anything else. I will say I hate actions and activities, as well as beliefs, but NEVER the people. I teach this to anyone who will listen because God taught it to me, through the Bible.

You say religion causes victimisation. You may as well say that government causes genocide. These people are to religion what Hitler and Stalin were to government. You cannot judge the whole based on so poor a sampling.

There's probably more I should say, but I can't think of it now, and I don't want to read through all those posts again.

 

Other than the fact that they both involve sex and the Bible says they are bad...actually, they don't. The lack of a victim (with regards to homosexuality) is a huge difference. Comparing homosexuals to pedophiles is at least as bad as comparing you and Gnarff to a hate group (and probably worse). For all their bluster, the hate group just hates. They don't break the law and attack people. Pedophiles are criminals who exploit children. Seriously, which comparison is worse?

 

One of the real losers here is Louis, apparently he is constantly trying to get these people to be less militant, but the only thing that is leaving his mouth is an endless stream of stupid, inane questions. Examples:
The Phelps were clearly annoyed with him from video 1, in their "hospitality" they give him the chance to talk with the headman and then he comes up with the most dumb*** question you can ask such a man, "how many children do you have?" doublejoetee-ef?.
He gets a free hit against the Jewish hate of the brainwashed documentarymaker and he then alienates him by insulting Jesus, and in defence for that remark he flashes his ignorance of the bible around.

Surely the Phelps here are cuckoo, but the documentarymaker is such a dumb*** that I am wondering which one of the two parties I should be making fun of, and which one I should pity.

Edit:
I thought nasty words would be filtered..

[ April 05, 2007, 00:20: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

You think it's really that arbitrary? What if there's more than just this lifetime to judge by? Once we've died, we might learn more about the truth of the supernatural.

And following from my previous comments, after we die, we will learn the truth about God (and I'd wager that there may be many Christians in for a shock too)...

If the family is determined to be "good", anything that work against the family must be "evil". Homosexuality does not promote the concept of the family, and therefore is not "good". Unless there is severe circumstances, divorce is an attack on the marital union by destroying the bond between man and wife. This is not "good", but it can be the lesser evil if one side of the union is committing greater sins against the union (abuse, infidelity, criminality, addiction).

So is a lack of morality in the populace. How many drug dealers or killers are out there? Do you think they care what the Bible or the Qu'ran say about what they do? They have no overriding morality and do as they please...

Compared to mockery and insults, really no progress is made...

Religion forces nothing. It teaches it's doctrine, but the folower chooses to obey. By choosing to obey, we find ourselves at odds with those that don't agree. The opinion that we're brainwashed is really insulting to those of us that have been out in the world and have forsaken it for God.

Exactly. Both groups claim they have no control over their sexual desires and claim that no real harm is being done.

Exactly. Those people are a minority of Christians. The majority of Christians adopt a stance similar to what NOG described.

 

Please. The idea that the ability to distinguish right from wrong stems only from religion is not only wrong, but offensive and ignorant. I hate religion, but I don't lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, or hurt people. The same is true of most other people (and if you think that devout Christians never murder, rape or steal you are deluding yourself). Just because you have rejected Judeo-Christian morality doesn't mean that you become a murdering rapist.

Seriously, Gnarff, can you name someone (even one person!) who has ever been injured or had their rights violated by two homosexuals having consensual gay sex? It's not like you have to watch or join in, you know....and what makes you think that homosexuals can't control their sexual desires? There's a big difference between seeing nothing wrong with something and being unable to control a thing. The gay community has never stated that they can't control their sexual desires. They simply see nothing wrong with being gay, so they see no reason to hold their own sexual desires in contempt. If you insist on continuing to compare homosexuals to criminals who sexually exploit innocent children, then you deserve to be lumped in with hate groups.

@Barmy, I apologize for admonishing you earlier. If they are going to keep spewing this kind of baseless, inane BS then maybe they do need to explain themselves.

[ April 05, 2007, 07:28: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

I'm going to agree with this. Homosexuality and Pedophilia are two very, very different things. It's like comparing an orange to a DVD and then saying they are the same thing.

 

Why do people keep asking this same question? It's idiotic. You're looking for physical or psychological harm in this world, the other side is looking for spiritual harm in the next, and you both come away thinking you're right, only to ask the *same damn question* the next time the topic comes up! Can't you guys just shorthand it by now?

 

Fel has a point. We've been over this before, we all know what everyone's going to say, and it isn't really even what the topic is about.

 

NOG, GNARFF, by comparing pedophiles to homosexuals in the way you do, you are stating that exploiting and spiritually harming innocent through manipulation or force (pedophilia) is actually no worse than spiritually harming (and not exploiting unless you all sex is exploitation) a consensual partner who has not been manipulated or forced into the act and who understands exactly what he/she is doing (homosexuality). In other words, you are likening homosexuality to what amounts to rape. If that is what you mean to say, then fine. If you don't mean to say that, then you guys need to stop comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.

 

Hmmm... While I disagreed with 90% of what Gnarff said, this little tidbit seems to have some validity. Most people would agree that the family unit is "good". If you start with the premise that the family unit is one of the greatest goods, then naturally, anything that works against this great good must be "not good". Now, one can argue against the initial premise, but the conclusion he draws is valid if one accepts the premise...

EDIT: I probably should explain myself a bit better. Gnarff's starting premise assumes that everyone agrees that the family unit is good, and that homosexuals actually want to marry someone of the opposite sex and have children with them (which they don't). However, if your beliefs tells you that the premise is true (which is the case with Gnarff), then the conclusion drawn seems perfectly reasonable.

 

I agree that a family is generally a good thing, but after that all bets are off. I, for one, am perfectly willing to define a "family" as being Mom+Dad+Children.

 

Drew, you are atributing judgements of harm where none have been given. I never said that homosexuality was just as bad as pedophelia, just that there are certain similarities that were relevant to the discussions at hand.

Rallymama, (darn, there's no CHEERS smiley) I agree with you whole heartedly.

 

NOG,

I forgot something vital in there - the clause "something in addition to" prior to "Mom + Dad + Children"

IOW< I think there are many, many social groupings where a loving, nurturing enviroment can be fostered, regardless of the roles that the participants take on. To try to legally elevate one of those definitions at the expense of all others is foolish at best, and detrimental at worst.

 

You know, maybe you should try making a more valid comparison rather than defending a faulty one that offends people. Just a thought.

 

But you seem to at least understand (or maybe care) about morality...

I would question their devotion and/or understanding of Christian doctrine...

I didn't say that. I was saying that a rejection of morality in general (which you have stated that you do not) regardless of source is a greater threat than a bunch of idiots that get a hold of religious doctrine and twist it to justify hating someone they won't like anyway...

That's not just about harm, it's about claims that they "have no choice in their attraction".

But apparently I'm expected to support them...

How about their claims that they have no choice in the matter?

So they want to take away my right to disagree with them?

Actually I also like them in with Adulterers and fornicaters because all classify as sexual sins...

You wouldn't understand it anyway. Isn't that what started this thread in the first place?

That's the harm, but again, some will not accept that...

Yeah, but the Mods don't like swearing, and I would have trouble stating it without repeated use of George Carlin's "Heavy Seven"...

And since it's from my perspective, then I have obviously accepted that premise.

No assumption is made about homosexuals. I was working from the defined "good" things, trying to show a positive spin and how homosexuality does not contribute to this.

In truth a family should extend to uncles, aunts, cousins, grandparents, and others "adopted" into that group. A friend of mine is engaged and has two children with his fiance. I've been "adopted" as Uncle Redneck. I will disagree with homosexuals forming the basic union to start the family, but it will admit it is hearless to cast out those in your family for involving themselves in homosexuality. God still charges us to love them, even though we can't condone their acts.

Like a Church group for example. This is how humans ought to behave in general.

But can that be avoided? To some sidesm, this is seen as a binary choice. Anything that elevates one group, no matter the intent, diminishes the other group by some views.

I stated that they don't promote the family, not that they actively seek to destroy it (generally speaking). They only seek to destroy it if the object of their desire is married to someone else (akin to adultery).

Every avenue to salvage it must be explored, but if the bond is destroyed, then nothing can save it, and divorce will happen...

Then we wouldn't have a thread here, would we...