(Spoiler) Paladins - how do I get the real illithium without being deceitful?

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Wisdom is not the faculty of reasoning - *intelligence* is. Reasoning is the act of thought in drawing conclusions from facts. What you *do* with those conclusions is wisdom. Wisdom is the *use* of knowledge. If you smoke despite knowing it's harmful, you're not unintelligent because you know the facts of smoking, but you *are* unwise since you aren't using that knowledge well.

Yes, foresight requires reasoning, but making the effort *to* seek foresight is a matter of *wisdom*, as is *acting on* i.e. using, whatever foresight is achieved.

These are the facts: the paladin needs the Shadow Thieves' help. They are hindered by vampires. [Having taken precautions, the paladin emerges from the crypts with a weapon that the vampires had hidden. He has it identified - it is the Mace of Disruption.] The paladin knows he will be facing vampires again soon. He also knows that he hasn't met the leader, who is likely to be the most powerful and dangerous of the bunch. Maheer has said there is a dwarf called Cromwell who can forge powerful magical weapons. Cromwell has said he uses exotic materials. Illithium is an exotic material. The Mace of Disruption is a weapon made to destroy undead. The paladin *reasons* that maybe the illithium can be used to make a weapon similar but perhaps better than the MOD. No harm in talking to the dwarf. The paladin gets the knowledge that the Mace can be made considerably more powerful. *Now, *how* does he use this new knowledge? He can not use it i.e. ignore it or he can be wise and weigh things up. His foresight has already told him he must be prepared for a path *he has no choice* but to take. He must decide on the matter of greater need: that Imoen is saved from an evil wizard or that the church of Helm gets *another* beautiful object? What does the church lose if they don't get what they desire? Remember, desire isn't *need*. What does Imoen lose if the paladin dies at the hands of the vampires? Does the church *need* an *illithium* object? Does Imoen *need* to be saved? Is it the paladin's responsibility to try to save Imoen? Would she do as much for him? Is he honour bound by his oaths as a paladin? More to the point, did the paladin make any pledge to get an *illithium* token for the church or to get Sir Sarles to work for them? Did he make any pledge at all (no - you agreed to *try* to get Sarles' work)?
So, the greater need to help Imoen is obvious isn't it? No promises will be broken to the church, to oneself or to Sarles if the illithium is used elsewhere. Furthermore, the church *will* get illithium - just not *pure* illithium.

I've been convinced on the 'greater good' course.

For the record, the paladin needs high wisdom for the willpower required to resist temptations and to make the necessary sacrifices. His charisma is so that he can influence others by his example. It is small-fry to be one man being good and influencing no one. Many people manage this. It is another thing altogether to *lead* people on a crusade of righteousness. Often the paladin has to convince people to rise up against tyranny; he has to inspire them in times of desperation. He has to rally troops on the battlefield; he has to convert the misguided and disillusioned. The paladin must be a leader among men.

[ January 23, 2004, 23:23: Message edited by: keldor ]

 

What happens if you go to the house where it is, without ever talking to Sarles (or the guy in the temple of Helm)?

 

If I remember correctly (I may be wrong), I think if you go there first, the door is barred.

 

Being Lawful Good, the Paladin will try his best to uphold the law, but not as much as a Lawful Neutral. This is why a Paladin will even break the law if he sees this as evil or impartial. (Keldorn will defend a beggar in the Government District from an Amnish Guard)
The aim of all good characters with high wisdom is the greater good.
It is the characters who lack this attribute who act with no regard for future consequences.
Take Keldorn, for example. At some point, he'll realize you to be the son of the Lord of Murder.
Nevertheless he accompanies you for the greater good - despite any [put paladin restriction here] in creation. Keldorn, in fact, even risks his paladinhood by joining you.
But he knows that it is all worth it if he can help you avert the destruction that looms in the horizon, a power he knows that no one but you could choose to conquer.
A paladin with lower wisdom would probably be arrogant enough at this point to assault the evil on its own, and so far I've yet to hear a similar story with an ending which does not result with the paladin slain and his cause, lost.

In this respect a Paladin may choose not to give Sarles the Illithium since he knows it will have better use lsewhere, but he must not under any circumstance replace it with a fake since these will cause blunders in more ways than one. Of course, you can just do this and hope for the best, but it would be like running away from the consequences of his decision.
Then again there's no honest choice, so you can just give Sarles the Illithium, and assume you had told him honestly that you found the ore but couldn't give it to him.

 

heh, first good post here. The best alternative to being truthful and giving Sarles the Illithium is in fact giving him the fake illithium and pretending you told him it was fake! You'll take some heat for it, but in the end it'll turn out better, with no deceit.


Make sure you learn the true distinction between wisdom and Intelligence, since you got it wrong should read the description in BG2 or a PHB.

 

Which part?
A paladin may be smart enough to know what would happen in the future, yet unwise enough not to resort to unorthodox means for the sake of the greater good.
Hence, the paladin who couldn't bear to side with Bhaalchild in the first place would go against his better judgement and resort to foolhardy measures.

 

Omigodly, you *can* tell Sarles the metal you’ve got is fake! This I did. I solved the dilemma by having Jerlia make the alloy after I learned that her source was Duergar, on the grounds that being a paladin I would have nothing to do with anyone evil (although I have game knowledge that he isn’t). When I got the alloy, I stashed it. I then went to check if the source was evil and when I discovered he wasn’t, I spoke to him and discovered about Neb. Then I went to Neb’s and ‘had myself’ a tough fight from which I retreated (I did actually get seriously backstabbed twice but to be honest, I think he’d run out of potions of invisibility!). Then I determined that Sarles would have to make do with an illithium alloy since it was ‘too dangerous’ to get the pure stuff at this time.

Klorox, if you go to the house first, you’ll need to either break the door down or pick the lock – it can be done. Firstly, no paladin would break into a house without good reason although I allow myself to ‘hunt down’ evil, which means I can open locked doors (by having them picked) so I can check that all is well. If I enter an abode like the one at the other end of the bridge district with the woman, the little boy and the trapped chest, I play as if I have announced that I’m a paladin spreading wealth to the poor and I leave some treasure for them (between 7 and 20 gps worth) – always put it on a bookshelf or the law will come running! Anyway, if you entered Neb’s before you’d taken any mission for illithium, you’d kill him and take the metal for yourself i.e. you’d have to sell it if the game allowed it, and donate the excess wealth you had. You could always buy it back if you needed to but you couldn’t *not* know about it any longer.

Scythesong, I think the game is poorly written regarding Keldorn and the beggar! He *should* have chastised the guard for his lack of compassion and advised the beggar not to beg where it is illegal i.e. go to a temple of Ilmater. He certainly shouldn’t *lie* to an officer of the law doing his rightful duty (although it may be that Keldorn knows that it *isn’t* illegal to beg in the government district and the guard is just being over-officious and snobbish). Paladins should *never* break the law! They are staunch defenders of it and if a law is evil they will fight to get it changed and fight to defend *real* justice. Such a change in the law must be democratic and follow due process. To choose to ignore the laws the paladin doesn’t like is to endorse the practice (of ignoring the laws one doesn’t like). That is the same as endorsing the evil to ignore the laws *they* don’t like! This would lead to a breakdown of order and a descent into chaos. If a paladin does break the law, he must atone for his action by seeking out a high level priest and serving penance as the cleric prescribes.

 

I just checked this out. To answer my own question:

If you go to the house without talking to anybody, Geb isn't there. You can still loot the other stuff from the place, but the illithium isn't there.