Starting new game. Need some help :)

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1. Some suggest that i should Dual my Kensai at Lvl. 12. Some suggested dualled at Lvl. 13. What is the difference to dual my Kensai to Mage from Lvl. 12 or Lvl 13?

2. If i plan to dual class my Kensai to Mage at level 13, would it be too late in the game to enjoy it benefits of being a Kensai/Mage? Would the game be over when i'm just about to unlock my Kensai abilities again at Lvl. 14 Mage? I have ToB installed.

3. I have Aerie memorized Hold Person and Slow. When i cast it on a Fighter, it would missed. Does successfully casting a spell and affect the target has to be done with Attack Rolls? For eg. Aerie will need to roll a Hit in order to successfuly affect the Fighter? If so wouldn't that suxs since Mages have low THACO and their probability of rolling a Hit against a Fighter is low.

4. Since everyone mentioned Keldorn, i'm really tempted to have him for my party because of HA and his abilities. Between Jan and Minsc, which should i dump? If i dump Jan i would have no thieve abilities at all. I can't really decide here. Can anyone help convince me? Since Minsc could not progress beyond specialization, which proficiency should i be investing in? Flail or Warhammer better for Minsc? I know there's this Flail of Ages that i heard of but not really sure about Warhammer. Again i'm asking your opinion, i know that the choice it's totally up to me

5. According to the manual on specialization:

Proficient: Bonus to Hit +0, Bonus to Dmg +0, Attk/Rnd 1
Specialised: Bonus to Hit +1, Bonus to Dmg +2, Attk/Rnd 3/2
Master: Bonus to Hit +2, Bonus to Dmg +2, Attk/Rnd 3/2
High Master: Bonus to Hit +2, Bonus to Dmg +2, Attk/Rnd 3/2
Grand Master: Bonus to Hit +2, Bonus to Dmg +3, Attk/Rnd 3/2

I would like to know if the above specialization stacks? For eg. I have 2 ** (Specialised) in proficiency hence i enjoy the benefits of Bonus to Hit+1, Bonus to Dmg+2 and additional 1/2 Attk/Rnd. IF i were to spend another pt. in Mastery *** (Bonus to Hit +2, Bonus to Dmg +2, Attk/Rnd 3/2), DO i end up enjoy the following?

Transition from Specialised to Mastery: Bonus to Hit (+1 and +2 = +3)
Transition from Specialised to Mastery: Bonus to Dmg (+2 and +2 = +4)
Transition from Specialised to Mastery: Attk/Rnd (3/2 and 3/2 = 1)

Does it work as what i've described? Assuming IF specialization DOES NOT stacks, then what is the point for progressing from Master to High Master? Additional pt. is wasted but only to progress to Grand Master for additional +1 to Dmg? Also, is there a BIG difference for spending additional * to Mastery from Specialised just to enjoy the +1 to Hit?

Thank you for all the great answers! Game wouldn't be much fun to be able to discuss and share with you all here

Great thanks!

 

1. The difference is an extra half-attack per round; MORE than worth it.

2. With ToB, I wouldn't worry about it. You'll have plenty of experience to go around, especially with only a party of five.

3. It 'missed'? Hold Person and Slow are not spells that require an attack roll. If you mean it just didn't work, that's probably because the target successfully rolled a save vs. spells, which should show up in the feedback window.

4. Now now, don't let us mess with the party you've made. If you've never had Minsc before you should take him; he's hilarious. On the other hand, if you've had Minsc before but not Keldorn, then take Keldorn for a new flavor. (Sometime you might even want to have them in the same party. They've got some pretty good banter.)

5. Nope, it doesn't stack. Which is one reason why I never take more than two stars in ANYTHING (the other reason is that that's as far as you can go in regular 2e and I'm a purist). Like I said before, going from one to two stars is a big jump, but the rest are tiny little baby steps that really aren't worth it unless you've got points to burn and have a good idea of what you're going to be using for the rest of the game.

As for there being no difference between Mastery and High Mastery, take a closer look at the table. There should be a little footnote explaining that you get a -1 bonus to your weapon speed with High Mastery. Sure, it's almost nothing, but not quite.

 

Thanks Felinoid for the quick reply . For pt. 3, since if opponent can basically roll a save vs. spell, then would Greater Malison+Hold/Slow = Dead Fighter? . I don't really know but i'm just thinking of it since Greater Malison inflicts a -4 to saving throws hence with this combo it will be neat to basically eliminate any Fighters.

I have another thoughts for ponder that i wished to share with you all. Not really a question though.

Regarding Dual-Wielding. Assuming i'm dual wielding a Long Sword+1 on my main hand and the normal Katana on my Off hand and i have 3* in Two Weapon Style. Hence it yields me 0/-2 on my attack rolls for main and off hand. Doing some maths here, If i were to have the following arrangement with my Long Sword+1 and Normal Katana:

Case 1
Main Hand (Long Sword+1)
Off Hand (Katana)

Referencing to the above arrangement, my main hand would have no penalty to attack rolls but gains a bonus of +1 to roll and a +1 to damage on a successful hit. Damage=1D8+1. With this arrangement I gained a -2 penalty to my attack rolls for my off hand.

Case 2
Main Hand (Katana)
Off Hand (Long Sword+1)

Referencing to the above arrangement, i equipped a normal Katana now on my main hand and the Long Sword+1 on my off hand. With this arrangement i would have no penalty to attack rolls on my main hand and deals 1D10 damage as compared to 1D8+1. Also notice on the off hand that when i equip it with a Long Sword+1, basically i reduced my penalty to -1 instead of -2 and hence yields a better To Hit advantage. And bearing in mind that a successful hit on the off hand would yields another 1D8+1 damage.

Don't you guys think this Two Weapon Style skill is flawed? By just switching between main and off hand on the weapon arrangement and i gain a better advantage for Case 2 as compared to Case 1.

 

Why's that flawed? Seems to make sense to me. Using a magical weapon is easier than using a nonmagical weapon, so wielding one in your offhand would make attacking with that hand less cumbersome. But if you have multiple attacks naturally, you'll want the most powerful weapon you have in your main hand, since that's the one you'll be attacking with more than once.

In the core rules I don't think weapon fighting styles existed at all, and it was a flat -2/-4 penalty for dual wielding. Rangers had no penalty and other warriors and rogues could lower it by their reaction adjustment modifier. There might be some supplement I haven't read, don't know.

And yes, greater malison makes enemies easier to affect with spells that require a save. But -4 is not -20, and it's never a given that it'll guarantee a success.

 

^Just add a few doom spells (they are cumulative if you don'T have the fix) they can easily have a penalty like -10. Then cast a spell with an existing penalty. (Finger of Death, Chaos, Symbols etc. al) It is fun!

Anyway, dual-wielding is weird, I should admit. You can have 9/2 attacks/round with true Grandmastery, and you hack with your off-hand weapon only once per round? It makes litle sense to me. Wouldn't it be one slash from one, than another subsequently? In the game this is instead, first, first, first, then second weapon hit. Hmm. Do dual-wielding fighters actually fight like this in real life for balancing themselves?

 

I imagine few people would bother trying to fight with two hand weapons in real life, it's simply too awkward. They used to wield an off-hand dagger called a main gauche in classical European fencing, but most of the time it was only used for parrying and trapping an opponent's blade. Some Japanese fighters supposedly fought like this too, but you should take anything you hear about samurais and ninjas with a grain of salt.

In the core 2nd edition system for dual wielding, though, yes, the single attack with the off-hand is correct. What you should bear in mind about about AD&D is that it's supposed to be quite rare for any fighter to have more than one melee attack per round, normally. There are few fighters who live to 7th level (3/2 attacks), and fewer still who live to 13th (2 attacks), and grandmastery doesn't exist in the core rules as far as I'm aware, only specialisation (two dots) - which is supposedly rare enough in itself. So an extra attack is a considerable advantage.

 

I think the chart we use origionally came about in one of the optional rule books but I could be wrong. I never did look through them much and I could be confusing them.

In PnP which I tend to call tabletop RP though. It was a matter with two weapons that you swung with your first weapon. You swung with your second weapon. Then if your character achieved the ability with his fighting and master of some weapon in the form of being specialized then your first weapon got to hit again. Quite realistic in manner.

 

Only one attack for the off-hand makes sense because of the difficulty involved. How well and quickly can you make an attack with your dominant hand? Compare that to using your other hand (off-hand) and you'll notice a big difference unless you're ambidextrous or something.

And as has already been pointed out, the off-hand weapon was usually mostly for parrying and such. In regular 2e, you could actually give up an attack to parry someone else's. You pick a "target", and if they ever "hit" you, you could make an attack roll to parry it and cancel it out.

Say you've got a dual-wielding ranger against a single-wielding fighter, equally matched and under 7th level. The ranger gets two attacks and the fighter gets one. Now, the ranger uses his off-hand to block, and that cancels out one attack on each side, leaving the ranger able to pound on the fighter's shield and body with impugnity. Now, naturally the parry wouldn't always work, and would sometimes get wasted if the fighter didn't hit, but it still gives the ranger a HUGE advantage.

As for your Case 1 v. Case 2 analysis, it's incomplete; allow me to do it for you. First of all, the damage is equal between the two weapons (5.5 average plus STR bonus), so they are a good pair to use. Assuming a 13th level Kensai (either before the dual or after getting your powers back) with 17 STR and specialization in both weapons (and an enemy of AC0 to make it simple):

Long sword +1 in main hand, Katana in off-hand:
2.5 attacks with the Long Sword +1 @THAC05 = 2 hits
1 attack with the Katana @THAC08 = 0.65 hits

Katana in main hand, Long Sword +1 in off-hand:
2.5 attacks with the Katana @THAC06 = 1.875 hits
1 attack with the Long sword @THAC07 = 0.7 hits

Long sword +1 / Katana = 2.65 hits
Katana / Long sword +1 = 2.575 hits

Case 1 is better if you do the math.

 

Hey guys i'm not sure if i messed up with Aerie's romance. She mentioned yesterday about her wings and in one of the romance option i selected that i would promised Aerie to regain her wings. Unfortunately, she grewn over-upset and i'm not really sure if i ended her romance by giving a false promised.

I'm still confused here. Felinoid mentioned that specialization don't stack but someone mentioned 9/2 attacks per round and that's 4.5 attacks in one round. In referencing to the specialization table, IF attk/rnd does not STACKS then transition from Specialised to Grand Mastery = 1.5 attk/rnd. How could it be made to 9/2 attks/rnd then?

@Felinoid
Thanks for that comprehensive explanation on the case 1 & case 2 analysis. However, call me an idiot but i can't seem to understand how you derived those expressions

i. In referencing to the below, how is 5.5 avg. damage is derived?
Long Sword+1: 1D8+1 = 5 avg. damage
Katana: 1D10 = 5 avg. damage

ii. How do you derive 2.5 attacks for main hand and 1 attacks at off-hand?

iii. In referencing to the below, how is 2 hits (for main hand) and 0.65 hits (for off-hand) is derived?

Long sword +1 in main hand, Katana in off-hand:
2.5 attacks with the Long Sword +1 @THAC05 = 2 hits
1 attack with the Katana @THAC08 = 0.65 hits

Thank you all

 

When Silverstar mentioned 'true grandmastery' I think he was talking about the mod which gives you an extra half an attack per round for having five dots in a weapon.

That's still only 3 attacks per round though, no idea where he got that extra attack and a half. In the unmodified game, your maximum natural attacks per round as a fighter should be 5/2 (your base one attack per round plus half an attack at level 7, half an attack at level 13, and half an attack from weapon specialisation).

Edit: Oh - there are some items which give you extra attacks per round, as well. One is Belm (a scimitar of speed +2), which makes it decent for wielding in your offhand even if whatever you're fighting is immune to +2 weapons. I think one of the 'limited edition' merchants sells a ninja-to which gives you an extra attack, but it's only usable by monks. The Tuigan bow is essentially a short bow of speed. And there's some gauntlets in Throne of Bhaal which give you an extra half an attack per round. Might be more TOB items which give you bonus attacks, I can't remember them all.

[ January 27, 2006, 10:56: Message edited by: Prine ]

 

Yep, my Kensai was dual wielding Celestial Fury+5 and Sanchuudoku+4, and was 'TRUE' GM in katanas, he was alos VERY high level and as such he had 9/2 attacks per round. Do extra attack thanks to GM work for the off-hand weapon as well?

When improved hasted, he had an amazing number of 9 attacks/round which made GWW attack useless, he used Critical Hit HLA instead! 9 attacks per round, all critical hits with katanas wielded by a highest level kensai true Grand Master! Cough..cough..

 

Archraven says: Hey guys i'm not sure if i messed up with Aerie's romance. She mentioned yesterday about her wings and in one of the romance option i selected that i would promised Aerie to regain her wings. Unfortunately, she grewn over-upset and i'm not really sure if i ended her romance by giving a false promised.

Don't worry, you should still ok, she'll calm down later. As long as you don't call her a whiny self absorbed you know what, you should be all right.

 

And perhaps he should open a new topic for that question? Ahh what I am thinking of myself? I am not a moderator....

Still, true enough, she will sometimes be very sad and angry then she will calm down, accepting her fate, as long as you behave kindly to her everything will be OK, she is the easiest romance so far.

 

That can be achieved very easily. In my current party, Mazzy is a prime example:

1 attack (normal) + 1 attack (off-hand attack when dual-wielding) + 1 attack (13th level fighter) +1/2 attack (specialization with the weapon in the main hand) = 3.5 attacks
But it doesn't stop there. A few weapons in the game (Belm, Kundane, Scarlet Ninja-To) have the effect of giving you an extra attack when equipped:
3.5 attacks + 1 attack (Kundane) = 4.5 attacks
Ta-da! With "True Grandmastery" (no such thing really; grandmastery was made up solely for the cRPGs), you could even reach 5 attacks per round and have 10 attacks per round when Improved Hasted.

Not quite. 1d10 means 1-10 damage, which averages to 5.5 ([1+10]/2), and 1d8+1 means 2-9 damage, which does the same. Your averages would be correct only if 0 damage on a hit were a possibility.

Simple question, simple answer. The off-hand only ever gets 1 attack period, and specialization doesn't factor into it there. The main hand is as follows: 1 attack (normally) + 1 attack (13th level fighter) + 1/2 attack (specialization) = 2.5 attacks

Well, @THAC05 (and assuming an AC0 enemy as I said in my previous post), 1-4 would miss while 5-20 would hit. So, you've got a 16/20 chance to hit, and 2.5 * 16/20 = 2. The same logic applies to @THAC08: 1-7 would miss and 8-20 would hit, giving you a 13/20 chance to hit, and 1 * 13/20 = 0.65. Naturally the humbers would be slightly different if the enemy had a different AC or your character had a different THAC0, but I was trying to get a general case for your final character.

 

Apparently there's a 2nd edition supplement called Player's Option: Combat and Tactics which contains weapon mastery and grandmastery. I don't have the book, but grandmastery gives you half an additional attack per round, and also increases your damage dice by one order of magnitude (so 1D6 becomes 1D8, 2D4 becomes 2D6, etc.) And you get critical hits on a 16 instead of a 20, with some limitations.

Might be the same book that allows you to take ambidexterity as a proficiency, too (lowers penalties for dual wielding to 0, the same as rangers).

[ January 28, 2006, 04:31: Message edited by: Prine ]

 

*Archaven bows towards Felinoid's wisdom*.

I'm speechless. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the maths to me. You've done it flawless! and even a 3 year old would have no problem understanding it

I've just finished 2 quests in Amn: Rescueing Raelis Shai & Haerdalis and Unseeing Eye quest. Honestly, my party was kind of weak and should have not took this quest (i have not even done Trademeet & Nalia's quest yet). My very first attempt was the Rescueing of Raelis Shai & Haerdalis. I have no idea i would have transfered to an unknown plane and to battle very difficult enemies!!. What's more i don't even know i can't rest while in there.

I was so lucky i could made it through the plane simply because of one item: The sewer's cloak which grant polymorph once per day. Without this by no means, i will have to reload to a earlier saved game to bypass the Realis quest and to perform it later on. With none spells left and most of my party members were hurt and there is no way i could beat this Master of Thralls together with his 2 Air Elemental!. With quite a number of reloads and attempts i'd still failed to defeat these 2 monsters!!.

I have almost given up hope till i tried polymorphing into a troll! I can't believe it when i polymorphed into a troll and i start hitting these 2 air elementals together with minsc i defeated them along with Master of Thralls with EASE! and also it regenerated my almost dead Kensai onto FULL HEALTH! *prays to god*.

Only later on i've returned to Amn and i identify that i've obtain a Staff of Air+2. Then i only knew that it was supposed to be used against the Air Elementals. Unfortunately, i have no identify scrolls/spells with me otherwise it would have been easier.

Sorry for the long rant. I was just sharing with you guys on how lucky that i could have made out myself from this astral prison. After finishing this level most of my party became very powerful. Am i suppose to perform this quest so early?

Now onto my 2nd question. In the sewers of the Unseeing Eye, i've chosen to attack Gaal instead of accepting his offer on joining the worshipping of the Eyeless god. After defeating him together with 3 guards the Beholder appeared!. Was is it this the way it meant to be played? Should i be accepting Gaal offer first and wander inside? Did i miss anything?

Thanks all.

 

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You can accept his offer, seem like doing his drty job, but then you can always do what you want. Indeed, accepting Gaal's offer is a great (and maybe only?) way to have a chance of killing Unseeing Eye!

Shouldn't you open a new topic for this though? Moderators don't like this kind of off-topic questions much.

 

Err, sorry if it sounded condescending, but I've been a math tutor so many times that it comes naturally to explain out every tiny detail (just to make sure). Tone and facial expression are very important to soften it (apparently the mild smile on my face didn't get typed up by the computer).

Well, I wouldn't do it quite as early as you did, but it sounds like you hadnled yourself well. Kudos.

Well, yes and no. Realistically, you should just refuse and get attacked, but that's not the way they want you to go. What you're supposed to do is ask to join but refuse to give up your eyes...and things go from there. Remember the door you couldn't get through way up at the top of the map? Gaal has the key and will send you to get something, and then [no more spoilers unless you want them].

 

@Archaven-

Well, actualy you accept but tell him that "putting your own eyes out makes you uncomfortable", and he will give you a side quest so you can access to "wander inside".

If you need more info let me know!!!