Starting party with no intent to multi class

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In the normal unmodded game, ECL characters earn your party more XP. There is nothing to argue about there. It is a fact - as JT and Kmonster have said. But I wouldn't choose my party on that basis alone because having the sorts of characters you want makes more difference to the enjoyability of playing the game than what level you're at.

 

Harbourboy, I'm not arguing that ECL races don't help earn more XP. That's not the point. The point is that given a choice, I'd rather have my NON-spellcasters be from the ECL races than my spellcasters, because I think that tanks and rogues are less affected by having 1 or 2 fewer levels than spellcasters are when they lose those 1 or 2 levels of the highest level of spells.

 

@crucis
Tanks usually have enough HP to take the stray fireballs and good fortitude saves against death-magic. Decoys have good saves but can cetrainly use some SR. Arcane spellcasters seldom have neither good saves nor good HP. Thats why they need SR. They won't be targeted as much as decoys and tanks and they have mirror image, but thats not always enough. Also the drow is better suited for spellcasting with +cha and int.
Wizards don't get scrolls fast enough when playing non-ECL and sorcs can wait an extra level since all they need in normal mode is fireballs and maybe mass haste later on. Wail and symbol of hopelessness makes fights too easy since almost no enemies can save against them. In HOF otoh enemies are good enough for it to be worth a casting of these superpowerful spells.

 

^Mudde has good points, but still I don'T want to make my casters ECL races. The best defense is good offense, or so I say to myself, so high level of spellcasting is worth the lack of SR and/or saving throws. That is obsolete, ofcourse once in HoF ECL chars will also be able to cast Wails often. But for newbies, avoid casters with ECL races is all I can say...

 

I guess the conclusion is that if your party is going to be a mix of ECL races and 0-ECL races (lets call them drow and humans, for simplicity), it is better to have the spellcasters be human and the tanks be drow, rather than drow spellcasters and human tanks.

BUT if you're going to have a homogenous party, it is better to be all-drow than all-human, because the parties will be equal level, but the drow party will have a ton of extra perks.

 

@JT
The last conclusion is that if you plan on playing HOF and are prepared to have a little harder time through normal mode to get a little better if HOF, you should go with Drow

 

Mudde, my comments apply to normal mode too. The drow party will not have a harder time in normal, despite what the manual says. Yes, drow have -2 CON, but the other bonuses outweigh that, PLUS they get SR.

Compare a level 10 drow fighter to a level 10 halforc fighter. The orc has 10 more HP and +1 hit/damge, but every so often he is going to get charmed by the bad guys. Meanwhile the charms are going to bounce off the drow's SR, and even when they penetrate that they have to deal with his save bonuses. I prefer to use a few more healing spells than to watch my fighter turning around and butchering my spellcasters.

Then when you get to HoF, they aren't just "a little better"; spells are flying all over the place, and drow/deep gnome SR makes them wildly superior to the ordinary races.

 

Ok, I was a bit unclear. I meant a drow sorc will be better in HOF, but slightly underpowered in normal mode unless the whole party is high-ECL-races.

 

Are you really suggesting that a party of all ECLS will reach the same levels as a party with no ECLS in normal play? I doubt this is supported by anything other than conjecture.

I also find the argument that the drow sorc doesn't "need" high level spells anyway and thus its ok to get them later to be a bit silly and reminds me of the old "sour grapes" fable...

 

Yeah, gotta agree with you there, Wanderon. Does a Drow Sorc "need" those high level spells at the same place and time as a human sorc? Well, maybe not. But when you're a sorc or a wizzy, are you really better off having those high level spells at a given time or having a few better stats and innate abilities? I don't know if there's a truly right answer, but I do know that I favor getting the best spells available to my sorc ASAP.

 

It isn't a suggestion, wanderon; its a fact (or an assertion, if you like). It's supported by experience and reason. I'm sorry to keep repeating this.

Is the game balanced? No. To be balanced, a level 7 drow would have to count as a level 9 character when it came to exp awards. If that were the case, drow parties really would stay two levels behind human parties, and drow spellcasters would be at a disadvantage in normal mode. (But in HoF you would still want to play drow, because SR is just that good, plus you'd reach level 20 fast enough anyway.)

 

@ JT

And I'm sorry to keep repeating this but I simply do not believe your "assertion" that a drow sorc is not going to be behind a human sorc for the entire "normal game" and get thier spells later and you have said nothing nor pointed to any evidence that would make it so.

As to using a few extra healing potions as opposed to having my fighter attacking his allies how about just having your clerics learn the proper spells to remove those pesky spell effects so it doesn;t matter if you have SR or not along with not min/maxing so much that your saves suck to begin with...

 

1. As several other people have pointed out, ECL parties earn more exp than human parties, which makes up for them needing more exp per level up.

2. if you keep Protection From Evil up all the time, it will use up quite a few cleric/sorcerer slots that would have been better spent on Sancturary or Charm/Chromatic Orb.

3. If you wait to dispel the charm effects, that ties up your casters, plus sometimes your traitor fighter will get a few whacks in before you can dispell him, PLUS whatever enemies were engaging him before will immediately switch to another target, likely the spellcasters the fighter was supposed to be protecting.

4. Bad fighter saves aren't caused by min-maxing -- they're caused by the game rules, which give fighters poor Will and Reflex saves.

5. A good way to improve fighter saves is to min-max. Dump your INT and CHA down to 3 and use the points to improve DEX and WIS. Also min-max by concentrating only on one weapon type, giving you extra slots to spend on the save-improving feats.

 

@JT

Or maybe just a couple of Magic Circle against Evil in the level 3 slots.

Uhhhh, no.

I don't think that it's a "good" way. It's just the powergaming way.

And true fighters will have sooooooo many feat points that they can afford to waste 1 or 2 on Lightning Reflexes and/or Iron Will.

I happen to think that Iron Will and Bull-headed are two perfectly good feats for a Fighter. I tend to view spells with Will saves as more of a threat than those with Reflex Saves. I suppose that that's because I always tend to fear having my tanks charmed or hit by a fear/confused/stunned effect that takes them out of my control more than just taking a few extra HP of damage.

 

And as I pointed out this only applies to kill exp not quest exp and the lower the average party level the less monsters and less higher class monsters a party sees so NO I do NOT agree that ECL parties earn enough more exp to "catch up" to non ECLs and to say they do is purely conjecture becuase it "seems like" they "might" do so - I ain't buying it...

I rarely bother with PfE until I get the PfE 10' radius
and from that point I DO keep it up all the time - I rarely use sanctuary as I don't allow wusses in my parties that need to run and hide cuz they got a little 'boo boo" they either stand and deliver or fall and get raised. I rarely use my sorc for any sort of buffing other than stone skin they are nukers and archers and my clerics main purpose in life is to keep the party buffed and offset enemy spells where they can. With spontaneos healing and max wisdom in a single class cleric I raely run out of spell choices and almost always have plenty of room to learn some remove paralysis, remove fear, exultation, freedom of movement etc since they can always convert them to healing spells when needed.

Thats my clerics job it doesn't tie them up at all and I generally don't have my frontliners right on top of one another nor my spellcasters right on top of my tanks where they are likely to become the next target if someone gets charmed. The point is that SR might be just dandy if you have it but its not REQUIRED you can get by just fine without it. I certainly don't require a drow in every party just to have it...

Perhaps that was done for a reason - like game balance - the idea is not to have a character that can't be touched by anyone its to have a balanced game where you need something in your kit besides "charge" to get by.

Some folks may wish to play like that I don't happen to one of them. I don't minimize any stat more than -2 from its racial start point and I prefer to choose weapons based on whats the best available right now for the most part rather than focus on a single type for my warriors. I may get to Kuldahar before putting even a second pip in a weapon and rarely take a third unless I am RPing a specific fighter build in that manner.