SW: Attack of the Clones, Movie Talk (SPOILERS)

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"Wow, look at the size of it!"

"Yep, it's a whopper all right!"

 

Big B. We bow to your knowledge.

 

Yeah, the coolness factor of Anakin and Padme in the places we saw Luke and Obi-Wan is high. As are the fight scenes and a good bit of the symbolism (technology vs biology in always an interesting contrast).

But I can't get over the hokiness of the romance. Sure, it's doomed to failure and Lukas isn't setting up a perfect relationship, but the dialogue was horrible. I'm thinking especially of Anakin's description of his longing for Padme as a ball in the pit of his stomach or whatever.

Perhaps that was another parallel with Luke, as I haven't seen such bad acting since Mark Hamill whined "No! You're not my father!"

But I still want to see this again in the theaters and then buy it on DVD. I don't own any of the SW movies, but this one I'd actually like to have. And on DVD so I can watch the Yoda fight in slow motion.

 

Yeah! Great stuff Big B, it all seems to fit into place, however i have two points i want to make:

1) I am with shralp on this one, the romance was not meant to seem uneasy it was meant to seem cheesy, the perfect match, maybe Lucas is trying to achieve a sense of Irony rather than unease.

2) Being a student of Drama, film and the arts i have been taught about countless techniques and styles of directing. And i have been taught how to analyse correctly too.
Sometimes people fall into the trap of reading a little too much into a film and the way it is done. The good on the left and bad on the right or whatever, probably has nothing to do with unease it was just a case of evil had to be on one side so make it right. Same with the footsteps, the guy wakks directly cos he is a soldier and probably didn't hurt himself so much on the way down due to the fact he had huge armor on.
Sometimes people get carried away and it is easy to do this whole clever analysis of things. Hey i even did it in my exam explaining that saving private Ryan was a representation of modern American opinions of british people........all a load of tripe it was just a film about a couple of guys in a war.

Lucas is the sort of guuy who makes a clever story line and big bits of action, he doesn't try and fit underlying tactics to confuse the audience.

 

Well first off that was a great analysis Big B. But I do have to agree with Sir Dragon. I don't think Lucas was trying to be that clever. Star Wars by his addmission is a serial, a space opera. He's not turn for two much double meaning. Yes, there are some great section like the Anakin imagry in the Lars household. But I didn't think Lucas said to the actors 'be stiff, be wooden.' I think much of the problem with AOTC was Lucas may write a great story but he is not a very good director.

 

Okay here’s my impression of the film since I know you people have been glued to your chairs constantly refreshing this forum for the very first glimpse of it .

The first half was terrible, the acting was very poor and these half hearted excuses that he's meant to be all angsty and unconvincing just don't hold weight, perhaps I could accept it for the romance part but the wooden acting throughout the entire movie such as the dramatic parts on Tatioone show the real lack of quality, the only ones who manage to give a good show are the older actors like Lee who probably know not to take it too seriously. The fact is in the 'classic' trilogy the actors (particularly Harrison Ford) had the charisma to carry the awful dialog that is in all the Star Wars films but with the huge expectations the younger actors like Natalie Portman seem out of their depth. The romance was very dull to the point of being bloody painful in some scenes, luckily the actual idea of a Jedi Knight tormented by forbidden desires against a backdrop of civil war is pretty cool and there’s enough references to the later films and plot building to carry it along (not to mention shots of scantily clad Natalie )

The second half was one long wank over the CGI and special effects that Lucas probably acknowledged as the sole way to save the movie from being a disaster like Ep1 was. To be fair it was very impressive to look at and the last hour was worth seeing the film for.

Since I’m partly writing this in reply to the huge review above by Big B it's worth pointing out that implying critics are idiots because they don't agree with your opinion and over enthusiastically using sarcastic quote marks make you look like a moron. If you don’t go expecting to see a masterpiece but accept it as a fun movie with excellent special effects then it is well worth seeing but writing an essay praising it to the heavens is stupid when there have been far better films out even recently like LOTR. Maybe I’m being a bit harsh since you said you would follow up the review with your thoughts on its negative aspects but I really think people give Lucas waaay too much credit and rate this film too highly. It’s almost like after Ep1 everyone was determined that this would be great even if it turned out mediocre.

Edit- By the way I love the Count Dooku gimmick account who's posting in this thread, at least I hope it's a gimmick/troll ;/




[This message has been edited by Abyss (edited May 22, 2002).]

 

You da man, B.

urple lightsaber:

 

Big B,
The romance dialog is intentionally fake? Your spin is way to forgiving. There are 5 movies, littered with clunky dialog. Are we to assume that it is all fake? You are kidding yourself. On this point, I agree with the critics. Lucas is not the screenwriter he thinks he is.
As far as the acting is concerned, Abyss made an excellent observation. Talented actors can carry off bad dialog with some success. Bad actors (Mark Hamill for instance) cannot. With inexperienced actors, it is a mixed bag. In this case, they couldn't do it.

Edit:
Yes, Count Dooku is a troll. A funny troll (the last post was classic), but a troll nonetheless.

[This message has been edited by Jack Funk (edited May 22, 2002).]

 

I've been there now. And I can only say, I am proud to be Yoda's drinking buddy.
I am complete...

As to the rest of the movie. I can't judge something I love. Something I dream of. As Padme says. Get back to the real world. But I can't. ESpecially not after this movie. I read the critisism here. But do I acknowledge them? no. Do I care about details and bad acting, if it was so? No. I got 2 hours of thrilling stimulation to my imagination. As Obi says. Stop focusing on the negative... It will only ruin one life. One experience. Your own. Be bitter. Be dissapointed. It doesn't spoil my life. Just yours

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited May 23, 2002).]

 

Yeah the little green bugger must be really handy in a pub fight.

 

Yeah You should see him drunk. Hitting on all the cute babes on Dagobah... We use the force only for defence though. Well Who knew that the babes were dating the ruffians? The dark side clouds everything...

 

Hey can you use the force to ward off the ill effects of a night out?

BTW what cute babes on Dagobah?? It's a swamp. Incidentally is that Yoda's home planet? That's the only explanation I can think of as to why he would retire there (beside being with his noble drinking buddy).

 

He retires there (this is according to the books, and we all know how highly Lucas views the books after AotC..) because the presence of the dark side tree (remember ESB?) masks his presence from the Emperor and Vader, so they do not hunt him down and (try to) kill him.

Hmm.. Yoda vs. the emperor and Vader. It would be an interesting fight to be sure, but I wonder who'd win..

 

the dark side tree is the place to be... about that no cute babes will disagree!

 

What a breath of fresh air Abyss is! I totally agree. Star Wars films are splendid, but at the end of it, they are badly written, by a guy whose passion is special effects - a field in which he remains a world leader. There is little point in reading too much into them - enjoy them for what they are (enjoy them many, many times, of course), but lets not get carried away with it all...

 

Archangel (I still wanted to say Nobleman)... as long as you care for a good view on a screen of something where you dream of, you must have seen a great movie! I'm glad for you

Lee, that was a reply on Archangels post on the 2nd page of this topic

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited May 23, 2002).]

 

Headbanger - what are you talking about?

 

Dont call me unbeliver, but about that lightsaber thing, Taluntain mentioned: if it is made from laser aka. polarised light, how can it hit each other, laser can only interfiere<sp>, but that main reason im interested in that silly mistake is that when i wached trailer, i noticed dual wielding lightsaber, but in the movie stupid Annakin looses so many lightsabers that Obi gave it to him knowing that he will probably loose it in the crucial part ! And that dual wield looked soo much better than that dual lightsaber from Ep1. But Annakin losted 2nd saber after 7 sec and that were the best 7 sec of sword fight in the whole movie. Yoda's moves not included

 

I am not a science fiction fan by any means. Anytime I watch something that takes place in space that isn't Star Wars, it just doesn't feel right. I'm not being close-minded, it's just Star Wars does the whole galaxy, far far away thing for me so perfectly. If you don't want to see the deeper side of Star Wars, you don't have to, there is plenty of eye-candy and thrills. And that is part of the equation too. The Star Wars films are a lot like the old serials of the 50's. They are also influenced by Japanese movies. I hear that ANH is similar to Hidden Fortress in a lot of ways, and I'd like to check this out sometime. I think it's neat that a modern movie can not only provide such enjoyment but have an influence (at least on me) to want to see older films. Let's face it, the majority of people today could care less about many films made before the 70's. But my point is, there are certainly many levels to the Star Wars movies, so you can take away what you want. But please don't go telling other people that what they see isn't there just because you choose to ignore it, or don't quite see it.

PATHETIC

Contents:
1) Elite attitude in the prequels
2) Why didn't anyone free Shmi?
3) Shmi's death scene and a voice from the past
4) Fun and games in the Arena


1) I mentioned Anakin and Padme being "elite" earlier, and I'm going to expound on that elite idea some, because it reinforces the pathetic moments in AOTC. As Vukodlak has pointed out, the Jedi are a bit arrogant. Even Yoda acknowledges this in the conversation with Obi-Wan before his trip to Kamino. Consider the camera angles when the changes between scenes on Coruscant are made. Right after the unnerving interrogation and death of Zam, the next thing the audience sees is an extremely low-angle, establishing shot of the Jedi Temple (complete with five ivory towers.) Coincidence? Not hardly. When Obi-Wan leaves the temple archives to go to Dexter's Diner, down in the streets of Coruscant, we get a rather high-angle establishing shot. Again, not a coincidence. In general, the Jedi are above everyone else on Coruscant, and since that is the capitol of the Republic, it's safe to say that the rest of the galaxy feels that way. And with a little prodding from our favorite Chancellor, the masses will turn against the Jedi.

2) The arrogance of the Jedi is a big part of their downfall. And this brings up Tal's good question of why Anakin, or anyone for that matter, fails to free Shmi Skywalker?!?!. Even Anakin said someday he would come back and free her in TPM. Qui-Gonn didn't have enough money to free her, but he certainly did propose the idea to Watto. Clearly getting Anakin to the Jedi Council on Coruscant was an important act, and Shmi recognized this as a chance for her son to live his dream. I mean, it's not everyday a Jedi runs across a boy so well attuned to the Force (and untrained too), and furthermore having been conceived by the Force! But Shmi makes a huge sacrifice, she lets her son go so he can accomplish his dream. Imagine if she hadn't. Sometimes in life when you get a big break you don't have time to analyze it, sometimes you have to go for it. No one likes to dwell on missed opportunities. This was Anakin's big break, and Shmi was going to let him have it. I won't say she doesn't look sad when Anakin goes off, but you can tell she is happy and excited for him. It is he who almost decides not to go, and it is her who tells him not to look back.

"Will I ever see you again?" "What does your heart tell you?" "Yes...I hope." Tatooine was not in the Republic, there was no guarantee the Jedi would come back to it just to free her (from Shmi's point of view.) I say surely if Qui-Gonn had lived through the battle of Naboo, one of his next stops would be back to Tatooine to free Shmi. Qui-Gonn is like that. He recognizes the importance of even the smallest creatures. He's the only guy who sticks up for Jar Jar in TPM. Even Obi-Wan's arrogance shines through -- "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form?" But the fact is, Qui-Gonn died. So why didn't Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Padme come back to save her? They knew her plight. Let's take a time out and consider her "plight". She was a slave, but Watto was not a cruel owner. It's not like she was being beaten. So any sense of urgency isn't there. But still, I know it's the idea. Slavery isn't right. But the fact is, no one saves her.

And that is pathetic. Plot-hole? In a story that's had 20+ years in the works? Not on your life. It's very intentional. I've already supported the idea that the Jedi are arrogant. Here's how I see it -- watch the Council when it first meets Anakin in TPM. You can tell that Mace and many others are skeptical, even embarrassed by the fact that the "Chosen One", the one who "will bring balance to the Force" is a 9 year old boy from a backwater planet, not even in the Republic. Yoda is caught up in the fact that he senses so much anger in Anakin, but for the others it's arrogance. Just watch Mace when he tells Qui-Gonn that Anakin will not be trained. When TPM is over, I'm sure Anakin reminds the Council that his mother was left on Tatooine. So what does the Council say...

Time to bring in another question and kill two birds with one stone . Why do the Jedi have to be trained when they are so young? Anakin admits to Padme "Possession is forbidden, attachment is forbidden, but compassion is encouraged." But what happens when possession and attachment conflict with compassion? Hypocrisy. It's all part of the Jedi downfall. It is possession and attachment that drive Anakin to the dark side (Lucas has said so. I'm not reading too much into this, and yes Lucas is capable of thinking about more than just special effects.) He wants to be so controlling -- of himself, of his destiny, of his mother, and of Padme. And fate would have it otherwise. Life doesn't always work out how you want it, and Anakin struggles with this constantly. Consider when Anakin tells Padme in the meadow about changing the system, and making people do what they're told, even if it's through force. That's what makes the dark side so tempting to Anakin. It is a chance to have the power to be in control (or at least that is what he is lead to believe.) That's how a good person turns bad.

And the Jedi fear this whole possession/attachment/controlling issue to such an extreme that they only allow young kids, who haven't had time to gain attachments to possessions and people, to be trained. Anakin too old. Luke too old. Both desiring control to an extent that there judgement is clouded. Both dwelling too much on an attachment that fate would have otherwise (Anakin's attachment to his mom; Luke's obsession with the father he never knew.) "I am ready! Ben tell him I'm ready!" Sound familiar? Yoda teaches that a "Jedi must have the deepest commitment." It's sad, it's harsh, but to play it safe, the Jedi think that only those who have no ties to material objects suffer less likely a chance to submit to the dark side, to desire control. Anakin and Luke are the anomalies in that they get trained anyway, despite deep reservations.

Lucas makes it clear that the Jedi Order is noble and seeks to do good, but it has serious flaws. Ones in which Palpatine will thrive on. Ones that influenced Qui-Gonn and Dooku. And so it turns out that Anakin doesn't get to free her as he once promised. He gets caught up in his training. And he wants to be a Jedi Knight so bad. No offense to Obi-Wan, but I can hear Anakin saying, "Hurry up and let me be a damn Jedi already!" He recognizes that once his is a Jedi, he can be like Qui-Gonn, a bit more free to go where he wants. Still loyal to the Order, but a bit of a rebel sometimes. Once he no longer has to follow in the shadow of a master off he can go to Tatooine -- against the will of the Council if he must. But instead another window of opportunity arises...his first solo mission. I say being around Padme again reminds him of his mother, and it stirs the passion in him. That mixed with some recent nightmares and it's off to Tatooine. He did go -- at the first chance he got. But why didn't Padme ever go and free her? No clear answer, but it lies somewhere in between she wouldn't think it her place to do so. She wasn't much aware of Jedi ideals. For all she knew, the Council would take care that. But 10 years later, when she finds out Anakin still has had no chance to free her, and he is having nightmares about her, then she whole heartedly agrees they should go, despite the Council's orders and her safety. This reminds me of a point I meant to add in my unnerving post but I forgot -- I loved the scene where Anakin and Padme are having dinner on Naboo, and she starts to cut her pear/apple fruit with a fork and knife (elite, proper behavior -- just pick the thing up and eat it already ) and Anakin force pulls it from her and cuts it and sends it back to her. Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit... except it's him who offers the fruit. And then a few scenes later, she offers it back (metaphorically) when she convinces him that they should go against the Council's orders and go to Tatooine. Clever.

3) But the pathetic aspect of AOTC doesn't end there. Shmi's death scene is very Pathetic, with a capital "P". Her situation, her look, and her death are just harsh. The way she flops to one side in Anakin's arms is like another slap in the face. Death is not pretty. So far Shmi has the worse death in the Star Wars movies. And Anakin just flips. This scene reminded me so much of Luke's encounter with the Vader apparition in the cave of ESB. In both cases, father and son find themselves, alone, and facing the dark side. And both times the pull of the dark side, the tug in the force, is so strong, that Yoda feels it. (I love it how Yoda goes to "probe the dark side" and ends up sensing Anakin and not Palpatine -- as to why he doesn't sense Palps, well that's Episode III folks, it's all speculation right now.) Make no mistake, the Skywalkers have profound influence on the Force, and vice-versa. A quick side-note: did you catch the voice that said "No, Anakin, no!" during the Tusken slaughter scene? That is Qui-Gonn's voice. Curious, very curious. Some speculation concerning this and why Jedi disappear and come back as "ghosts" has been made. But I'll touch on that next time.

4) Another pathetic moment in AOTC is the Arena scene on Geonosis. Consider 3 heroes, Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan, chained to 3 columns for the delight and amusement of a mob of Geonosians, as the prisoners are forced to fight hideous beats. Compare 3 columns to 3 crosses, Anakin the Chosen One on the middle column to Christ on the central cross, the Jedi to Christians being tortured for the amusement of Geonosians to the Romans, and compare Geonosis to "Hell". Geonosis is reddish brown, rocky, and nothing good ever happens there, it is the equivalent of a Star Wars Hell. A mockery is made of the Jedi, and a former Jedi witnesses this. More on Dooku next time. I have a lot to say about him. But although it's a thrill to watch, it's all very pathetic and it makes me feel sorry for the Jedi, despite their flaws. Episode III is not going to be pretty.


BALANCE TO THE FORCE

All this Chosen One business and talk of bringing balance to the Force...here is my take on it. The Order seeks to do good, but it doesn't always work that way. Reform is needed. Qui-Gonn saw it, and apparently so did Dooku. I understand what the Jedi are trying to prevent, but I have to say that the rule about being too old to be trained is not right. And the same for taking kids away from their parents at a young age. As the strongest users of the Force in the galaxy, much of the fate of the galaxy is held in Jedi hands. But if the Jedi have become arrogant, even starting to stray from their original goals and purposes of serving the people...than something needs to be done. The Force it seems, seeks to correct this. Apparently the Force is not in balance. But Anakin does bring it in balance -- in the strangest of ways. He hunts down and kills the Jedi throughout the galaxy. But he also has a son and a daughter. And his son manages to turn him back to the light side so he can complete his destiny and destroy his master the Emperor. All his life Anakin was a slave. Not just when he was kid. It's not until the end of ROTJ that he gets free. So bringing balance to the Force involves wiping the slate and starting over? I guess so. Unless Episode III introduces something that profoundly changes the way we view the story. But the Jedi aren't totally wiped from the Universe -- for Luke lives on and from the movies you get the impression he will go onto teach the ways of the Force to Leia. And it will go from there. The Jedi Order will be reborn. My most favorite scene in all the Star Wars movie is at the end of ROTJ when Luke looks off to see Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. Everything works out in the end. It has a very strange way of doing so, but it does work out.

Next post I'll write about the confusing aspects of AOTC and get into some Episode III speculation on Dooku, Jedi "ghosts", and much more.



[This message has been edited by Big B (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

Awesome job BigB. You're very keen in starwars lore.