SW: Attack of the Clones, Movie Talk (SPOILERS)

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Wow. Lot of speculation and seeing things where there may be none, but wow. I'm going to print that when I get home.

[Edit:] Btw, there's one point I disagree of. I believe that Anakin-turned-to-Darth returned the balance by the time of EP 4. As I commented on another thread, in my knowledge the only remaining force users are Sidius - Yoda, and Vader - Obi Wan. 2 pairs matching in power, or rather, Vader be stronger then than Obi Wan (though his death wasn't a matter of inferior skill), but Yoda would make up for that, ultimately creating a balance.
If Anakin were to truly be a slave to the destiny, then he would've killed Luke, the emperor and himself, thus keeping the balance. Just before he ultimately died however, he was finally able to do that one choise of his own independent will. To give in to the dark side completely and let that be the ruling form of force, or to destroy the emperor (and himself, he knew) and let the light side become dominant. It was there that he chose the light side... Because it was there that the life of his son and daughter lay? Perhaps. It was a free choise nevertheless, a choise that would stray from the balance..

Unless. There was something I am unaware of. Perhaps by destroying the emperor he -truly- restored the balance. Meaning there already was a dark force somewhere else, possibly appearing in EP 7,8 or 9. Assumptions all.

[This message has been edited by Forashi (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

Love and compassion defeats destiny. That is all.

The dark side or The sith had been extict for a millinea. Hmmm The one who brings balance... Yes let us teach him and expect he'll join the light side.

He brough balance; a sinister one indeed. So the prophecy did come through. Not all prophecies are eternal, don't you think? All that we can be sure of is that they eventually come through for a period of time.

 

I have just one comment to your wonderful analysis Big B, the dinner scene your symbolism is probably correct but this is the only time in the entire movie where the special FX dudes were lazy, really lazy. It is horrible done. Anakins knife cuts through the fruit like it was water (this could be explained by very sharp SW knives) and the real flaw, Amidala taking a bite of the fruite when it is still a few centimetres from her mouth. It is a small thing but in an otherwise excellent movie it mars the surface. Not to mention that it should have been noticed and corrected in the editing.

 

Funny, I never saw that. In the remake of EP4 however, I've 2 times now observed how Han Solo waves his hand through(!) Jabba the Hutt. Creepy. Have you seen both the analogical and the digital version? I did. Never would've imagined there to be such a huge difference between them. Like comparing 640x480 with 16bit colours to 1024x768 w 32bit colours. I encourage you to go check it if you have the chance.

[This message has been edited by Forashi (edited May 24, 2002).]

 

Big B - a gorup of us went to see Mulholland Drive last night. I would be intriqued to have an essay from you on a film that truely deserves the attention. Have you seen it?

 

On seeing the movie for the second time, I noticed a couple of pretty cool things that link to the things to come

1) The crest on Obi-Wan's starfighter is the Imperial emblem

2) The clone ships have green lasers, the same colour that the Empire has (The Rebel ships have red lasers).

Ah well, it's a very good movie in my humble opinion, but I do think that it is possible to deduce a bit too much about some things. Ah well.

 

This was a really good movie. Lots of action, love scenes minimized, excellent humour and a lovely Natalie Portman in that white outfit.

 

Cool findings Wildfire.

[This message has been edited by Frog (edited May 25, 2002).]

 

Wow! BigB...I just finished reading both your posts on AoTC - Amazing insights!! A lot of things you saw and said defnitely make sense when I think about it. Amazing stuff, man!

 

Again a great insight Big B, but a couple of things.

Star Wars! ..... Think about the title, think about what someone who titled his film in that way wanted to achieve. Now look at the other titles on offer. The Empire Strikes Back! The Return Of the Jedi! The Phantom Menace! and finally the wonderful ATTACK OF THE CLONES!.
Are you starting to see a pattern here?
Star Wars is not an in depth journey of one man's inner loathing and unsurpressable anger which leads him to become evil in the purerest form. It is just a groovey bunch of films about 'The chosen one' who becomes evil and tries to take over the universe........with light sabres and space ships and aliens and huge planet sized DEATH STARS!

Do you see my point yet? Lucas is just a director who wanted to make a cool film about sci fi, he was fed up with all this rubbish looking Star Trek crap and decided it was time to make something that looked real. He wanted to make a box office smash, a great action adventure with a little bit of emotion in it. for gods sake Big B IT'S JUST A FILM!

Why did Anakin wait so long to save his mother? Because if he had gone before and saved her he wouldn't have a reason to become the great Space Hitler! It's the same as all these coincidences in hardcore action films where a car just happens to be waiting or a one in a million chance pulls through, it is to make the film more entertaining, keep the audience glued to their screen!

The Jedi council certainly are arrogant but i don't think Lucas tried to show this through camera angles, he just wanted a picture of a nice big buildng so that people knew where they were and to wow the audience. Yeah there was the no training thing, maybe it's because they were jelous arrogant or maybe they sensed a bad thing in him, Yoda may have sensed that he was to bring balence to the force but also knew that that would involve the destruction f the Jedi order, not good for him then.

And the Jesus thing.....please for godness sake maybe he might have thought that just to make it dramatic but not as a metaphor for the three guys chained up.

I think you are getting far too deeply involved in what is essentially a cool action movie with flashing swords.
Maybe you could do a deep analysis of Die Hard next week fro us??

 

Everyone in this thread needs a beer.

One's a start, two's even better. And nun of that 3.2% stuff; only 6.2% or above...

Anyway, I don't think Georgey has been thinking this movie up for the past 20 years. That's why he hired an 'assistant' writer to help/slap him. I think he's gotten older, and isn't the 'rebel' that he once was...

 

This film was one of the most disappointing events in film history.

1) I'm never going to be able to look at Darth Vador without seeing that acne-ridden whining little brat.

2) Lucas must have written the dialogue with a copy of Bartlett's Tired Old Cliches on his desk.

3) The story jumps in 38 different directions, and none of them make much sense.

4) The exceptionally talented actors are poorly exploited. How can you have such a badass cast act so poorly?

5) What's with R2 flying? When did he lose this ability? And C3PO just isn't funny anymore. Indeed, *nobody's* funny in this film. (I miss Han and Chewie...)

6) The "heart-wrenching" moments are gratuitous and just plain silly. I'm thinking primarily of the Boba Fett and Schmi scenes. ("Boo-hoo, I even killed the women and children...")

7) There's exactly none of the reverence or mystique for the Jedi religion.

8) I couldn't care enough about any of the characters to give a good goddamn about them dying.

IMO, Lucas should have quit while he was ahead and gone into a career designing video games.

Question: Would anyone have given these two dismal failures this much attention without the existence of the first three films? In and of themselves, IMO, they're worse than Independence Day. Great special effects, yes...and so what? Let's have a story, for cryin' out loud, a modicum of character development, some decent acting, a sense of humor.

I felt my money was wasted, frankly.

 

Gonzago, good points. The charms of the old movies are long gone. If it hadn't been for the old movies, I wouldn't have considered these more than exceptionally special effects. There is hardly anything but a confusing war story and good dialogues.

I can only say that the new trilogy are just action movies, the old ones are priceless pearls. When saying this I tend to agree with Sir Dargorn too

But Don't take this wrong. I still think it was a fantastic movie. I loved it. And I am definately going to see it again. The Universe and the old trilogy saves it.

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited May 26, 2002).]

 

"This is so confusing!" - C-3PO head, Battle Droid body

CONFUSING

I'd say if there is a weakness to the Star Wars movies, it is that (with the exception of Episode I and Episode IV before the prequels came out) they are confusing if you skip an episode. But so is the same with any series if you don't start at the beginning. If someone goes and sees the Two Towers and hasn't seen Fellowship of the Ring, they'll be confused. So the assumption these kinds of movies make is that you've seen what was meant to be seen first, or created first. A simple concept that yet more people tend to forget or ignore. You don't open up a book, read the middle, and call the book the confusing. That's ridiculous.

But AOTC doesn't try to ingore the confusion, instead it makes use of it. The bad guys are in the "know" and the good guys aren't. Since we see the events of AOTC through the good guys, much more so than by the bad guys, we share their confusion. But we also share answers along with them as they are gained. Obi-Wan's quest for the truth opens up our eyes as to what is really going on. And at the end when Dooku/Tyrannus meets Palpatine/Sidious it all becomes clear. Or does it? I'd say some of it does, some of it doesn't.

At the end Yoda says the shroud of the dark side has fallen. There's symbolism of the truth being shrouded all throughout the film, but especially in the beginning. It could have been night when the Queen's ship sets down on the Coruscant landing platform in the opening scene. It could have been day. Could have been rainy, sunny, whatever. But it wasn't. It was thick clouds and fog. Coincidence? Nope. The opening scene sets the atmosphere for the movie, the good guys are making their way through thick clouds, trying to find answers, and at the end all they get is a huge explosion that turns everything they know, upside down. Again when Anakin and Padme land on Geonosis, they land in a vent blowing thick steam. Geonosis is surrounded by a thick asteroid belt. The Geonosians blend in with the walls of their hive. The Kaminoans' walls shine with blinding lighting. And then there's Zam, the bounty hunter.

"I think he is a she. And I think she's a changeling." - Anakin

Zam being a shapeshifter reinforces the fact that things are not what they appear to be. Obi-Wan and Anakin are too quick to assume that their bounty hunter is a "he".

"Make no assumptions Master Kenobi. Clear are minds must be if we are to find the real villians behind this plot." - Yoda

DOOKU

So who is the real villian? Well we all know Palpatine/Sidious is behind all this or we think we know. But what about Dooku. Ex-Jedi Master of Qui-Gonn, former Padawan of Yoda. Now a Sith!?!

I question Dooku's motives. His actions don't add up. I feel the conflict, the good within him . Here's how I see it: Not long after TPM, Dooku is on to Palpatine/Sidious. Nute Gunray confides in him. Palpatine is Chancellor, the Trade Federation gets off the hook, Gunray is free. Somehow, Dooku is tempted by the dark side. Palpatine/Sidious turns him. But I think Dooku started out with good intentions. Maybe he thought by joining Sidious he could bring about his demise, and save the Republic and the Jedi. But as time goes on, Dooku is seduced by the dark side of the Force. Palpatine/Sidious than uses the Trade Federation, as well as new factions such as the Commerce Guild and the Banking Clan to meet his ends via Dooku. They think they are working for Dooku and his "Separitists" movement, when in reality they are working for Palpatine/Sidious. Now Palps has one side of his war, but he needs another. Cue the clones. I don't know who Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is. That's Episode III material, but whatever goes on... the Clones are ordered for the Republic without the Republic knowing. Now, Palps gets his army and makes the Jedi look unneeded.

Things are looking great for Palps and then that damn thorn in his side comes back to haunt him. Queen Amidala of Naboo, now Senator is blatantly against the Military Creation Act. But just as he rolled with the punches 10 years ago with his plot to become Chancellor, he rolls with the punches again.

"Perhaps an old friend, like Master Kenobi." - Palpatine

I love the crooked smile on his face when he makes that suggestion. I can just see the Emperor from ROTJ. Notice Yoda's suspicious looks of Palpatine during this scene. We know from their scene together, that Anakin has been coming to Palpatine for guidance.

"And so, they have finally giving you your own mission." - Palpatine (Again I love how he carries his hands in this scene and walks alongside Anakin just like he does in ROTJ.)

Get Anakin and Obi-Wan assigned to the protection of Padme, who one of his clients wants killed (Nute Gunray.) Palpatine gets three important people he's been keeping his eyes on all in one spot. Perhaps Obi-Wan will get killed in his protection of the Senator, and Anakin will be free to become a Jedi Master with a lot more freedom and a bigger chance to work personally for Palpatine... Or perhaps young Skywalker will die too in the protection of the Senator. In that case he wouldn't have been as strong as the "Emperor thought." Or perhaps, the Senator lives and Obi-Wan is assigned to the investigation and Anakin gets his first solo mission ... a step in the right direction.

Well well, Obi-Wan finds out about the clones on Kamino during his investigation. How timely! As the clones are now ready for war. But shame on these Jedi, ordering the Clones ten years ago behind the Republic's back! Oh well, we'll deal with that later, right now we have a war to fight, right? That's because my Sith apprentice has informed me that Obi-Wan has made his way to Geonosis and was allowed to submit his transmission realaying the nefarious events on Geonosis to the Republic and then captured. (Yes I say "allowed." I think Dooku senses Obi-Wan on Geonosis, let's him hear about the plans for treaties and alliances of the Separitists movement, relay his transmission, and conviently get caught at the end of it.) Oh, I'm afraid we'll have to use this clone army after all; if only I had the power to gain control of this army to fight the Separtists and rescue one of our "beloved" Jedi Knights. See how Palpatine just goes with the flow? He's the ultimate manipulator.

The Clone Wars begin, Palpatine gains even more power as the Chancellor, the Republic (quickly becoming the "Empire") gains an army, the Jedi have been framed by making it look like they ordered the Clones, furthermore they lead the Clones into battle. Oh well, guess we'll be loosing some Jedi to war . Things are looking good for Palps. The land is bought and the seeds are planted in TPM, but the Empire is born at the end of AOTC.

But Palps isn't home free yet. He's got an apprentice who I am sure he doesn't entirely trust. He was a Jedi after all...

"Join me Obi-Wan, and together we'll destroy the Sith." - Count Dooku (love how that eyebrow arches)

"Join me and together we will bring an end to this destructive conflict and rule the galaxy as father and son! You can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen this." - Darth Vader

Sound familiar? Palpatine has to keep an eye on his apprentices. That is the nature of the Sith. To try to and undermine each other. That's why if you have a whole bunch of them, they fight amongst themselves. So to preserve themselves the Sith say there should only be two, a master and an apprentice to pass the Sith on. But even two is one too many.

But Obi-Wan tells Dooku he can take his Separtist movement and stick it you know where. At this point, Dooku looses any interest he had in gaining him as a potential apprentice/usurper.

"In that case, it may be difficult to secure your release." - Count Dooku

All throughout the arena fight, Dooku watches with interest. But you can tell his thoughts are elsewhere. When Mace sneaks up on Dooku, he doesn't look the least surprised.

"Luke! Luke! It's a trap...ugghhh... it's a trap!" - Leia

"It's a trap!" - Admiral Ackbar

Dooku watches on as many Jedi are killed. I think he may have started out with good intentions, but the dark side has him.

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, like Obi-Wan's apprentice!" - Yoda

Yoda knows this all too well, as it seems now that his own Padawan has fallen to the dark side. Of course in the end, Anakin is restored to the light side, something even Master Yoda and Obi-Wan did not expect. Truly those Skywalkers are the exception to the rule .

But there still is conflict for Dooku. When the last of the Jedi are surrounded in a circle, he stops the droids and gives them a chance to bargain for their lives. Then Yoda comes and Dooku is fine with that, he doesn't have to kill the rest of the Jedi, the war is started just like his master wants, and all he has to do is pick up some serious weapon plans and get out of there.

But Obi-Wan and Anakin prove more resourceful than he thought. Notice that Obi-Wan draws his saber first. Dooku doesn't want to have to fight him...

"As you can see my powers are far greater than yours...now back down." - Count Dooku

But Obi-Wan doesn't. And he pays for it. The hate stirs in Dooku and he almost kills Obi-Wan, but Anakin's saber clashes with his just in time. (I love how Anakin saves his masters with that infamous saber clash in both AOTC and ROTJ, Obi-Wan and the Emperor respectively.) Then it becomes Dooku versus Anakin. Anakin's rage stirs, and Dooku spares the taunts he gave Obi-Wan, and concentrates more on defending himself from the monster in front of him.

"Impressive...most impressive." - Darth Vader

A close-up saber fight in the dark focuses on their faces, foreshadowing what is to come, and proving that it's not all about special effects and fancy choreography, there's more to it than that. If only Han were there to tell Anakin not to get cocky . In a flash, Anakin looses his arm, and Dooku pushes him away. This is important. He could have killed him. But he doesn't. Notice the look of concern on his face, even regret. But his thoughts are interrupted as his old master comes hobbling in. (I think Yoda really does have a limp, but when needed he can draw upon the Force.)

Only when Yoda is about to defeat him does he resort to threatening the lives of Obi-Wan and Anakin as a means to escape. His knows his old master well -- Yoda would let Dooku to escape in order to save Obi-Wan and Anakin. Again notice Dooku's face when he reports to Sidious. Something more is going on here. Bring on Episode III.


JEDI "GHOSTS"

According to the novelization, Yoda not only hears Qui-Gonn's voice like he does in the movie, but it is the first time that Yoda has ever heard of a deceased Jedi having an impact after their death. Now this is speculation (not mine), but right now it is the best explanation I have seen and so I stick with it. If it ends up being wrong, then no sweat. But right now, it's the best explanation IMHO.

Only Skywalkers have the power to "bring" back the dead.

The Force is so strong with the Skywalkers that they unconciously have the power to bring back other deceased force users who had an effect on their lives, in other words those who were tied to them in the Force in some way. Anakin hears Qui-Gonn's voice when he is stressed and is killing the Tuskens. Yoda hears it too because he is probing the dark side and his focus becomes centered on Anakin. Somehow, if you become attune enough to the "living Force" that Qui-Gonn kept talking about in TPM, you can leave your mark so that those strong enough in the Force can call on you, even after you are dead. I think Qui-Gonn began to develop this, and Yoda figures it out and teaches it to Obi-Wan by the end of Episode III.

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Now fast forward to Luke. Luke becomes connected to Obi-Wan, and can thus hear him, and later see him. In time when Luke needs him the most, Obi-Wan can come to him. (i.e. Death Star attack, frozen on Hoth, and on Dagobah with Yoda.) But for some reason, Yoda or Obi-Wan can't help Luke when he is too close to Vader or the Emperor. Curious. And at the end of ROTJ, when Luke needs comfort, he sees Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. I don't think Leia sees them, she isn't as attuned to the Force as Luke at that time. Well it's a neat theory anyway. I can't wait until Episode III. Then everything will be clear. Then people can cry "plot-hole" without prematurely doing so when the whole story isn't even complete. Patience. Everything is coming together.

 

Well done Big B. Your Star Wars knowledge and dedication is very impressive.

 

though i still disagree with you on your view of the script, i believe your 'confusing' interpretations were very insightful. time well spent!