Taliban

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Attacking in a war is different from attacking a peaceful country.

Now that Taleban leaders declared the Jihad, a holy war, they showed that they don't feel sorry for what happened to New York. I see this as a declaration of war from Afhanistan and I hope the whole Taleban regime will be punished for this (but not innocent civilians)

But I don't think just Bombing Kabul is the proper solution, however, some important military and government buildings should happen. FOr the rest, maybe it's better to attack by land, with bombings or rocket attacks, I'm afraid also in Kabul many innocent will die.

[This message has been edited by Headbanger (edited September 15, 2001).]

 

By targeting civilian installations terorists are stating that they will not be argued with. Just because they have not declared war does not make a difference.

America a-bombed japan. Now you may say this was to stop the war. But did they target military installations.could they not have dropped in the japanese muontains instaed to prove their power ......no. So in the past the americans have ben just as bad.
Japan was the enemy that had to be stopped.
As far the terrorists are concerenc America is the same thing.

Then you argue that these terrorists only do this because they are brainwashed in to believing.
But we are brainwashed too. We are told that terrorism and the middle east are evil. And that because we are *civilised* means we are not brainwashed we are *educated* and brought up with the *correct* beliefs.

Now here is my view on Iraq.
The americans bombed them because they did not agree with the sanctions and america was afraid that the next attack iraq would make would be with nuclear weapons.
So they don't want iraq to have big weapons while america has millions of them. It is proven that Americans only use them in an irrisponsible fashion when they bombed Japan and now they want a bloomin star wars system.

Just because iraq wanted to take over another country: But the americans took over the country they live in with even more brutality. So much in fact that the origional americans were nearly wiped out.
Just because it was in the past does not make it different. It still happened.
America cannot take what it gives that is the problem.
Now some of you small minded people may believe that i enjoyed the recent events due to what i am saying but if you thiink that then you really are stupid.
I condemn ANY terrorism wether it be from the middle east of america!

America a peaceful country! ha! they are most of the reason for the world state today!


[This message has been edited by Sir Dargorn (edited September 15, 2001).]

 

Yes, they should be wiped out.
They have already dug their grave by threatening u.s and its allies at a time like this. They should all die. They have all bit off more then they could chew.

 

Yeah i supose America is going to kick their arse right?
Just like they did in Vietnam?
ha!

 

Okay, lets be like them for a sec...

Kill them, kill them all! And treat the women nice! no more pain for the poor buggers! Just kill those fanatical shits! Instead of flying a plane into them lets fly a few shells and nukes up their arse! See how they like it!

 

Sir Dargorn, I normally don't use words like this... but you are a moron. Do you understand the situation of World War II?

America had just fought a series of long and bloody battles hopping up the islands from Australia. To their utter consternation they found out during these battles that the Japanese by and large refused to surrender, but instead fought to the last man. Because of the Japanese culture, they were more than willing to give their lives for their country. A very noble sentiment, and admirable had it been us attacking them instead of them attacking us, but anyway.

Had we attacked them on their mainland, the casualties would have been extreme. Most of these "civilians" that were bombed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have undoubtedly taken up arms as well, at seeing the great capitalist oppressor invading their homeland. Fighting to the last man, the Japanese would still have suffered millions of casualties had we not used the a-bomb. The difference is, so would we. When it comes to a choice between both sides suffering millions of casualties or just their side suffering the casualties, I'll take the latter, thank you very much. At the same time, I want to remind you that it still probably caused less Japanese deaths in the end than continuing the war in a more traditional fashion.

 

Sir Dargorn, there is a difference between war and terror. I don't expect any muslim fanatics being able to take over US, do you?

I think that US/NATO and Russia will invade the Ahganistan by land, if the Taliban don't give US Osama Bin Laden, I not only think, I truly hope so. (Ofcourse I'd rather have that the Taliban would hand over all the terrorist.)

 

Headbanger: I think to the terrorists the war had started when america stepped into the holy land and helped to kill their people, whether directly or indirectly. This act was not to begain a war, to them the war had already started long ago and this is their reaction to it. True, its not a big reaction, and it certainly wont stop the killing of their people, but would you rather they have nuked (if possible) america? That would have stopped the war, their war, wouldn't it? Just like it did in Japan wouldn't it? Of course, we all would rather they have did nothing and just watch their friends and family die before them right?
Capstone: They were going to die anyway, so lets nuke 'em so instead of both of us dying, only they die. Okay, i get your point.

Sorry, i think i'm rather sarcastic up there, but i think i'll just leave it. Rather in a bad mood now, sorry.

[This message has been edited by Arkados Blackmire (edited September 15, 2001).]

 

the american government = nazi regime
they think they can step on anyone

 

Oh Brother!

Here we go!

In response to Sir Dargorn

"By targeting civilian installations terorists are stating that they will not be argued with. Just because they have not declared war does not make a difference."

SO...are you saying targeting civilians without warning or regard is civilisied behavour?

"America a-bombed japan. Now you may say this was to stop the war. But did they target military installations.could they not have dropped in the japanese muontains instaed to prove their power ......no. So in the past the americans have ben just as bad."

This might be the dumbist arguement I've been exposed to! First, droping an Atomic bomb in the mountians of Japan would have obviously done nothing to end the war....hell, we had to drop 2 of the aweful things before they would consider surredering! And the two cities destroyed were centers of arms producton for the Japanese Military....if we wanted to target civilians Tokyo would have een a better target. Also please note the the U.S. and Japan WERE AT WAR! A declared war between (and this is most imporntant) 2 COUNTRIES! This was a mass murder commited by a GROUP! Not even an elected government of a country!


"Then you argue that these terrorists only do this because they are brainwashed in to believing.
But we are brainwashed too. We are told that terrorism and the middle east are evil. And that because we are *civilised* means we are not brainwashed we are *educated* and brought up with the *correct* beliefs."

ummm....when has murder ever been considered right and good? I'm not sure where you are coming from here. We all (most of us) live in free and democratic societies wih reasonably free press. I don't consider being educated or being told the truth a form of brainwashing.

"Now here is my view on Iraq.
The americans bombed them because they did not agree with the sanctions and america was afraid that the next attack iraq would make would be with nuclear weapons.
So they don't want iraq to have big weapons while america has millions of them. It is proven that Americans only use them in an irrisponsible fashion when they bombed Japan and now they want a bloomin star wars system."

WOAH....what have you been smokeing? I want 2! America along with over 30 countries (lets be fare and list Egypt, Syria, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Quatar, Baharaine, and many more)fought against Iraq. I think any reasonalbe person would agree that the though of an Iraq equiped with nuclear weapons would be a threat to the entire world. Were talking about a government that used poison gas against it's own people and started and started an ecologicial disaster by dumping oil into the gulf and igniting it for christ sakes!

"Just because iraq wanted to take over another country: But the americans took over the country they live in with even more brutality. So much in fact that the origional americans were nearly wiped out.
Just because it was in the past does not make it different. It still happened."

I beg to differ. Just because it was one in the past makes all of the difference. I hope that we as a civilised world has EVOLVED over time. By your line of reasoning, Slavery, Genocide, Mass Murder, Rape, Torture, are all acceptible behavour just because they were done in the past.

"Now some of you small minded people may believe that i enjoyed the recent events due to what i am saying but if you thiink that then you really are stupid.
I condemn ANY terrorism wether it be from the middle east of america!"

Obviously you do not condemn ANY terrorism. You just made an arguement, although a poor argueement at best, defending and trying to explane the actions of these murderers!

America a peaceful country! ha! they are most of the reason for the world state today!

You are right....America is most of the reason for the state of the world today. They are the reason that there is a free and Democratic European Union, not a Nazi regieme. They are the reaon that Japan and Germany are free and thriving coutries today instead of bitterly impoverished countries. America is the reason behind much more good in this world that bad. If you don't think so, you might want to look at the support pouring in from all over the world. Even traditional enemies of the US like Russia, North Korea, Lybia, and Syria have sent condolences. You might want to open you eyes a little wider.

 

I've had enough of this America won the second world war stuff. It was the attack ny germany on Russia that won the allies the war, America'a (belated because they thought they were unassailable) aid only helped ending it sooner. That is the reason that there is 'a free and Democratic European Union, not a Nazi regieme.'
Also i would like to point out that the USA has blown up many more civilians in their carpet bombings and cruise missile strikes etc in the middle east than the terrible events on tuesday did. Of course, they SAY that their information was that they were targeting military installions.
So what have we learned, even without the other things i would say to support this? Perhaps that the people responsable for the terrible mass murder on Tuesday seen their actions as vengence, tit for tat, and more importantly, as the actions they have learned from the US in the past?
And no, to clarify things further, i am NOT :
Anti American
Anti Capitalism
A nazi or communist of some sort
A supporter of some Middle East terrorist faction
A hateful person
I am just gifted with clarity, neither side is innocent. Right now, as i am typing this, both sides are CURRENTLY killing thousands because of their CURRENT actions.
And it is a sad day when i have to defend what faults i see, but i can tell from other posts on the boards i may have to.

 

Hummm.....

I don't advocate killing or warefare of any kind. But I am a student of History. And I also know that warefare is sometimes unavoidable.

"I've had enough of this America won the second world war stuff. It was the attack ny germany on Russia that won the allies the war, America'a (belated because they thought they were unassailable) aid only helped ending it sooner. That is the reason that there is 'a free and Democratic European Union, not a Nazi regieme.'"

Not quite sure that you'll win that arguement. True, the Soviet Union was ultimately the demise of the Nazi regieme, but are you going to argue that if America had not entered the war that there would be a Free and Democratic Europe right now? I think not. The Sovets would have kept on going and even the Scots would be drinking Vodka today. It is, however doubtful, that the Russians would have beeten the Nazi's without Americas help. Not only did we sent Billions of tons of suppliers and arms to the Russians, we also sent MORE to England BEFORE entering the war. If we had not (on the lend/lease program) it is doubtful that Brittan would have been able to hold out against the Germans. That means that Germany would have had an addition 30 or so divisions involved in operaton Barbarosa, more that enough to have crushed the Red army. Hell, they made it all the way to the outskirts of Moscow without the extra troops....could you imagine what would have happened if England was taken out of the war and the Germans onlyad one front (the Russian) to fight on. Thank god that didn't happen.

Please fill me in on who exactly the US has carpet bombed in the Middle East. I mean I know that we did fight against Iraq, but there were over 30 other countries involved. We did bomb, but what cities were carpet bombed by the Americans? NOT ONE. It's hard to argue against the fact that the US does at least try to limit civilian casualties....something that no other country has even tried to do throughout the history of warefare.

***KEVLAR***

I find it most distasteful comparing americans to nazi's. Especially since my Grand-Father faught and was wounded in Belgium during WWII....Trying to liberate YOUR country from the NAzi's. If America really believed that they could do whatever they wanted to do, do you really think that we would be spending so much time getting other countries support? Get real!

BTW....my grandfather who faught in Belgium...was born in LEBANON!



[This message has been edited by Llandon (edited September 15, 2001).]

 

Llandon, the countries bombed by the US that immediately spring to mind are Libya, who were proven to be underserving of it after the US had jumped to conclusions, and more reacently, Afghanistan, where the targets were indiscriminate.
As for the second world war, yes the US did deal arms to Britain, and help in that way to the war effort. As for the Scots drinking vodka, we do that anyway. Seriously though, perhaps, perhaps not. The point is academic.
As for the point i'm trying to make, and have been hinting at for some time is this, can you think of why these people do this? It isn't the reasons that the president has said in all his speeches, it's what the polititians do.

 

there are half a million children dead in iraq because of US bombings

 

Landon, so was mine, and yours wasnt needed there! The us didnt win WO2, face it, they came when it was almost over

 

I can see there is no arguing with you.
You are all obsessed with the power of the USA.

I have kept my feelings towards the USA held back before because i was afraid i would be kicked or disliked by all. That is how well you have been brainwashed. It seems that all of you are the ones who are morons and it is the open minded people who have not been corrupted by the US domination (both socially and economically) like me and Kevlar who will survive in this wholly confused and rotton world system.

I am safe in the knowledge that i am right because it is an opinion really of what is acceptable or not. You see you call me a moron because i have a different opinion on how Japanese culture works. But i call you a moron because you cannot respect my opinion of what would have happened(having spent 5 years studying jap culture btw) if they had dropped in a secluded location. Tell me who is the real moron.

To llandon: Your rather pathetic argumeent about brainwashing was just stupid.
You must have an open mind if you can think straight.
The US government would tell you to kill for your country and you would because it would be for a cause like defending yourself. These people are brainwashed to kill because they face violence everyday (mainly caused by the corrupted western world) and in attacking america they are defending them selves. Offence is the best form of defence. Half the world says killing is bad half say it is nessacery yet you are stupid enough to presume you are right.
OI!!!! AMERICA!!!! GET OVER YOURSELVES!!!!!!
But that is my opinion as i said and it only comes out in this topic so the rest of the time i am perfectly friendly still with all you and hope you can feel the same way.
I have a problem with the American Government. Not the people.

Back to my writing and storytelling. That i am good at.

[This message has been edited by Sir Dargorn (edited September 16, 2001).]

 

Just my couple o'coppers on topic.
To be politically correct, USA did not win the war, but allies did, and USA was a part of alliance. Would the europe have survived without USA's aid? Most likely, yes. Would the europe be as it is now without american intervention? Probably not, but we're in no position to judge, we can only suppose and guess. Would the allies win by USA's effort only? Puh-lease...

About Taliban. There are opinions, but most of them are divided between - "To bomb" and "Not to bomb". I say, they must be wiped out. Whatever it takes. If it takes leveling Afghan, so be it, for we cannot care about a country (call it so) that conceals international arch-terrorists this way. But killing bin Laden will not solve the problem, he has followers and lots of them. World has to kill them all. Every single one. If there are people among his admirers who can sacrifice their lives for their religion, then nobody is safe from a fanatic exploding nuclear devices, for example.
If they have to, they will find the way. These people have proven that they have no morals, and Allah is their law. (I personally will not comment on the religious part for I have insufficient information on topic).
World is to eliminate terrorists, not try to show them the right way for there is only one right way to them.

Just one more though for all you US-haters, and wannabe philosophers who speak of compassion towards the terrorists and their religion,
This war, if it is to happen, is not between countries, it is not USA verus whatever, it is not the way for USA to prove their military superority or economic interests, it is a war between common sense and extreme, inhumane religion.

I am not american, but I understand what the existance of terrorist, especially terrorists like this, means for humanity. You're welcome to put your flames upon me, and call me a moron.

[This message has been edited by Skedaddle (edited September 16, 2001).]

 

Thruth is like a river that splits up and reunites all the time. The inhabitants of each of the small islands created inbetween will always discuss which tributary of the river is the main one.


I can't change the past Dargorn. So I can't change all repulsive acts made by the US. And I can't change your feelings. But if terrorism as we saw it the 11th september was the start of a battle not against US but against materialsm. Then Europe has no sanctuary either. I would hate to loose you in a terrorist bombing. God Bless that I wont happen. I pray for peace and I pray that it US takes to first step in the right direction. How it should be done is still very well put by rendelius. this is but one of many approaches

I hope this is understandable Dargorn, Tassadr and Kevlar.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited September 16, 2001).]

 

small problem - they have the oil

solution : build cars that run on water

 

You confuse me Tassadar. Do you suffer from multiple personalities?

First I get the impression that you wont have US attacking middle east because it's organisations doing terrorism and not countries. Hence lots of innocent die.


Then you say: They have oil? it is terrorism not countires that We should fight against. Countries sell oil on the stock market. Not terrorists.

To build cars that run on water to hurt terrorism is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. the Dumbest thing Ever!