Tasing a ten year old... Wow!

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you'd be surprised at the amount of guns that are on the streets of the UK, and how easily it is to bring them in from the continent. on top of that knife crime is very high in the UK, I never know when I will be faced with a knife, and our security do not wear knife safe vests like the police do, we carry out body and bag searches upon entry to the club, but a split second is all it takes, our staff have to be ready for anything, we deal in close proximity to hundreds of revellers any one could be an armed dealer or a smacked out kid.

security is about who is smarter, not who is better armed.

 

In the UK there are 0.00102 guns for every 100 people -- and for the most part, those guns are owned by law enforcement and the military. In the US, there are 61 guns per 100 people and most of them are privately owned. Being smarter starts with not walking unarmed into a gunfight.

 

Drew, are those the official statistics? Because I think the point is that these are guns that aren't registered. You know, the illegal kind? That the cops don't know about?

I don't know what it's actually like on the Island, but from watching some crime dramas from the UK, the TV gives the appearance that every criminal and his brother still has ready access to guns. Of course, that's TV, so I have no idea if it's reflective of actual reality.

 

I definitely agree with that. I have come across too many security guards in my life that have... I'm not sure how to phrase this... an "authority complex" for lack of a better term, and wield what limited power has been given to them inappropriately.

Not THAT'S what I call a deterance! I mean, it would definitely reduce the incidence of people running onto the field, even if it did so by dissuading people from coming to the games entirely.

That reminds me of a line from the movie "The Untouchables" spoken by Sean Connery's character:

"Isn't that just like a [derogatory term for an Italian]. Bringing a knife to a gunfight."

 

I never agreed with that point of view, personally ... bring a knife to a gun fight and you can probably run away while the guy shoots at you from a distance and misses. Bring a gun to a knife fight on the other other hand and chances are you will get cut, while you're in close and fumbling to draw your gun.

Being smartest starts with not showing up for a gun fight at all.

 

What Shoshino is talking about is using your intelligence to avoid a fight all together. That means to diffuse the situation before it explodes or go get the people who can deal with an exploding situation (the police). It would be stupid of course to walk in a fight without a weapon. Security doesn't do that nor is it it's mandate.

 

Yes, NOG, they were -- and are you sure you want to imply that the UK has a bigger problem with illegal firearms than the US? Really? It's far easier to acquire illegal firearms in a country where firearms are legal and (at least in 24 states) the secondary market is unregulated than it is in a country where all firearms are illegal. 341,000 guns (the lowest estimate I could find) are stolen each year in the US, they don't just vanish into the ether, and that number doesn't even scratch the surface of firearms transactions placing a weapon in the hands of someone who has lost his right to bear arms that happen every year in the US in the unregulated secondary market. We have more guns than the UK, and we also have more illegal guns than the UK. It isn't even close.

Depends on the security. If security isn't equipped to deal with a real threat, than it isn't much of a deterrent to a real threat. In my opinion, there's no reason to pay security to just call the cops whenever there's danger -- any regular employee can do that. You wouldn't pay a lifeguard to yell "swim!" when someone is drowning, so why would you pay a security guard to just call the cops whenever a real threat turns up?

 

When it comes to security, what I think needs to be remembered is that not everyone acts logically and sanely all the time. If we were dealing with 100% rational people, the idea that calm words and reasonable actions will fix all problems would be a valid one. But it's not. You have people hopped up on alcohol, meth, or maybe even just life itself, all full of raging emotions and hormones and looking to garner attention or cause a problem or whatever.

I would argue that this young man was mostly hopped up on the latter -- he was excited, wanted to show off and get some attention, maybe to brag to his friends later or maybe to impress a girl. He was not responding to reasoned efforts.

Now the cop didn't know that -- he had no idea what the guy's eventual goal was; all he knew was that reasonable efforts to get the guy to behave decently were not working. In the interest of safety for the players and public order, he tased the SOB. The guy is still alive without any lasting damage, and order was restored. The guy had no right to be on the field, so it wasn't a violation of his precious civil rights when he got the jolt. So I don't see the big fuss -- he learned a lesson and the game went on as normal.

 

He chased him for a total of 30 seconds. He didn't wait for "reasonable efforts" to take affect. He pulled out and fired because he didn't want to chase the kid, period. That is why the Phillies organization has pulled the police out of the stadium the day after it happened.

 

Drew, do you realise that I can walk around the corner and buy a shotgun from a gunshop?

the risk of illegal guns in the UK is a big one, because.... da da da da, security dont carry guns - If I get faced with a gun, I have nothing to rely on then the hope that that person doesnt really want to shoot me, and that I can keep him talking for the time which it taked for the city ARV with a 3 min response time to get there - if someone really wants to kill you, armed or not, you are dead.
we get paid to take these risks, regular employees dont.

as I stated earlier in this thread, I have encountered imitation handguns, something which are quite common in the UK, but luckily Ive never had to test whether or not they are real.

I tell you what, I think that armed security in the US is a big problem, arm a bunch of arseholes with guns, Im sure if I was armed my attitude would be different, I would feel superior, and arrogant.

 

How on earth did you read that into what I said? All I said is that the registered guns list may not be 100% accurate, especially when the accusation is that there are illegal guns on the street. No, I'm 95% sure the US has a bigger problem.

No, the Phillies pulled the cops because they were getting bad press. I'm quite sure that's the only thing they cared about.

 

That is "one" of the reasons they pulled the cops, as I have posted previously. The bad press "is" the cop tasing the kid after not giving much of a chase.

 

Thirty seconds of wind sprints is considered a chase by some ... if a cop hasn't caught the guy in, say, 10-15 seconds it's highly likely the dude is faster than the cop and will not get caught without assistance. It sounds like the police in Philly recognize this and train accordingly....

 

That's what I've been saying from the beginning - 30 seconds is plenty enough time to realize the guy you are chasing is faster than you.

 

Yeah, Blades keeps going on about it just being 30 seconds -- but 30 seconds in a sprint is pretty draining for us older dudes. When I was 17 I could run several miles at a six-minute pace (not great but not bad either) all day and not really be too winded -- at 34 I was pushing it to maintain an eight minute mile for a mile and a half without dying. Now that I'm almost as old as Splunge I have no desire to ever run more than around the bedroom.

 

So, then your saying the age/shape of the cop makes the difference in when they should resonibly use excessive force? I completely disagree with that. If a cop can't run for 30 seconds, he needs to be behind a desk. I seen the footage. That kid wasn't running a marathon or running at breakneck speeds. The cop got lazy and fired the Taser.

 

Keep in mind also that a real 'chase' isn't a routine exercise. It involves lots of taxing actions - quick pivots, rapid acceleration, rapid slowdowns, and other things like that. Think of it as akin to professional athletes taking their game up to the highest level when they're actually competing and not practicing (real baseball games vs. spring training, for example). That's when injuries tend to occur.

If anyone doubts this, get a willing fleet-footed friend, give him or her a 30 foot, ten second lead, and then try to catch them by chasing them around for thirty seconds. And if you're really serious, make the catch something other than tag, e.g. a tackle or a wrap-up. You may think differently about the exertion used in a 30 second chase after that.

 

In an absolute sense, no. But relative the person you're pursuing, possibly. I have a 22 year old brother who can definitely outrun me. If I was chasing him in an open area (like an outfield at a ballpark), I doubt I could ever tackle him. He's just faster. It's not a question of me getting lazy. Whether I case him for 30 second, 5 minutes, or an hour, if he doesn't let me catch him, I'm not going to catch him. The cop didn't look out of shape to me, but the kid was a bean pole who looked like he could run non stop for two hours if he had to.

 

Were getting off topic as it is. My INITIAL point/position was that Tasing was unjustified, irregardless of how long they chased him. Bringing up 30 seconds just cements the fact behind the reasoning of why the cop did it. It was bad judgement either way you look at it. THAT is why the Phils pulled the cops from the security detail on the field. THAT is the bad press they fear, more stupid actions by police, which would tie the Phils org into the story and make them look bad. Otherwise, why would they pull the cops from the detail? Why would it be acceptable to Tase someone now, but they never didi it in the past? They never batoned, beat, billy-clubbed or shot anyone in the past. There have been guns available to anyone who wants one and idiots willing to use them in this country for years. Nothing has changed except for a few dumb cops using excessive force when it is unnecessary. As in this case.

 

... it was bad judgement for the kid to pull a stunt like that.