The Boy Scouts of America

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I stand ...partially... corrected. 5-25% is a pretty damn broad range -- far broader than the range of actual bisexual people. Only about 5 percent of men and 3 percent of women identify themselves as bisexual (sorry guys -- I was hoping there'd be more bisexual women out there, too). The high end of that range puts roughly 1 out of 4 pedophiles in the not-picky-about-gender category. If you're hoping to keep your kids free of pedophiles, kicking out the gay people isn't a terribly efficient way to do it if the high end figure proved to be accurate. You'd be wiser to kick out all men, since men are far more likely to be pedophiles than women (or at least to be caught or reported). Numbers are hard to come by, but the most common ratio of male to female pedophiles is somewhere in the range of 10:1. If this is really about protecting the scouts from pedophiles, we should probably kick out the men and just have female scout leaders.

I'd place more trust in a heterosexual female to not sexually abuse my sons than I would place in a red-blooded, hairy chested woman chaser any day of the week.

 

No, bars and stuff are not private organizations they are public establishments.

 

What's the distinction between a private or a public establishment?

 

The best answer I can come up with is a private organization is something that isn't open to the public. Private organizations tend to have a distinct charter that says what they are doing. They tend to also be funded by the members for the benefit of the members. A public establishment is something that typically doesn't have members or membership fees. They also tend to be regulated by the government in some sort of way. Retail and restaurants are the classic example.

As an example, the neighborhood tavern would be public while the bar at the local veterans hall would be private. Here in my state the local tavern has a lot more rules they have to follow, while at the veterans hall you can actually smoke in the building.

How it relates to this thread is a little bit more difficult. The reason is a function of size. Scouting is a very large organization and they recruit people from the public. However, you can't just show up and decide to go on a camping trip. You would have to join the Troop.

 

I’m not sure that “public-vs-private” is the important distinction here. To me, it’s more about why the organization exists. So for the Society of Heterosexuals Against Gays (members would be called SHAG’ers), it would be perfectly reasonable not to allow homosexuals to join. However, with the Boy Scouts, unless you’re going to suggest that one of the mandates of the organization is to promote heterosexuality, then I can’t see any reason why gays should be banned, any more than they should ban blacks or Jews.

 

Well, just because you don't see a reason doesn't mean that their governing body doesn't. Things also change over time. Who knows, in a few years maybe your SHAG group will decide that just inserting the tip would be OK.

As an aside, the other core tenant of scouting is you have to have faith. Atheists and Agnostics are not allowed in scouting either. However, if you believe in the god of the sun and wind that would be OK. I don't make the rules, I just report them.

 

OK, I was not aware of that. According to the BSA website:

The only indication that faith is involved is under the oath, where it talks about duty to god. Granted, that is fairly significant, but it’s not particularly prominent, and if I’m an atheist or agnostic (which I am), I wouldn’t necessarily think that I would not be allowed to join. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Snook (since you obviously know more about this than I do), but it doesn’t seem to be that obvious of a prerequisite. Having said that, belief in God does not necessarily mean condemnation of homosexuality; it depends on the specific religion followed.

 

That depends on local law. Some states allow members only bars. But they must be non-profit orgs. Like an Eagle's Club, Knights of Columbus, VFW, etc..

 

In the case of the LDS church, which is the perspective from which I view Scouting based on my experiences and upbringing*, one of the core values promoted by our theology is the sacred nature of marriage (between a man and woman**) and the importance of raising children in a home that follows God's rules. That being the theology, the fact that a homosexual tends not to marry or reproduce means that those who follow such a path cannot be full members of the faith. In addition, members want people of similar values instructing and setting an example for their children at Church sponsored activities.

I have yet to read the Church leadership's response to this. I would imagine that it focusses on what my friend was saying and was intimated earlier in this thread. Scouting events, particularily LDS ones, are not sexualized affairs. FFS, Cub Scouts are between the ages of 8 and 11, IIRC, and Boy Scouts are between 12-15, with Venturers being 16-17.*** Particularily at the younger ages, kids aren't talking about sex, or declaring their orientation, or doing anything other than playing games like Capture the Flag, making bird feeders out of milk cartons, learning to use camping equipment, and (God help me) playing Basketball when all else fails.**** Leaders do not talk about how often they boink their wives or give demonstrations on how to roll on a condom using a banana as a surrogate.

My point is this -- my friend was saying that if you live a chaste (if single) or monogomous (if heterosexually married) lifestyle, your orientation should not come up in any Scout activites. The self discipline, and "moral straightness" is what is valued and encouraged. I very well may have had Scout leaders who were gay, they just didn't make an issue about it.

Now I know what you are going to say. So I'll answer you right now -- if one doesn't agree with the theology of the faith, there are plenty of other options available. One of the core tenets of my faith is as follows:

Emphasis mine.

That does not preclude our efforts to bring what we believe to be the truth to others and encourage them to follow God, but it does mean that we compel or force no one in terms of their beliefs. That said, we also claim the right to direct the affairs of our religious organization. For example, as was discussed in other threads, LDS clergy will never perform a gay wedding, or a temple wedding for anyone otherwise not demonstrating commitment to the tenets of the faith*****. The separation of church and state precludes the state intruding on those matters.

The same goes for Scouting leadership, I imagine. If a person wishes to be involved in Scouting as a leader, odds are he'll be allowed to volunteer with an LDS troop if he merely presents himself as someone who wants to join the fun and help the boys grow. If, however, he presents himself as someone who is constantly going to noisily contradict, challenge, and disobey LDS standards and policies, he will be invited to find another troop that is more in line with his thinking. It's just common sense, not bigotry. Can you inagine having this discussion regarding a Jewish troop, and some guy insists on bringing up the value of pork at every meeting? Get real.

Now before anyone goes off on a tangent about "hate" or other such nonsense, let me tell you my experience. I was always taught to be kind to everyone, even if I disagreed with them. There is no LDS class that secretly teaches youth that there is a mandate to go out and kill gays. It's not about hate. It's about a world view that at the current time does not dovetail perfectly with society. it in no way advocates hate or lawbreaking. My experiences with church leaders over nearly 40 years have never once involved any sort of KKK clandestine nonsense, and those who wish to enter our buildings and respect our ways are always respected in return.

* I acknowledge that my experience is not the only one in existence. It is nonetheless as valid as anyone else's.

**Anyone mentions polygamy will be beaten with a wet noodle. It is no longer practiced, and hasn't been for over a century. Get over it.

***My numbers may be off. I stopped giving a rat's hind end around age 16.

**** Mormons love basketball. I <blanking> HATE it. But it was always the default activity on Wednesday nights if other plans went pear shaped.

***** For example, someone who is living heterosexually common law, or a smoker, or a drinker of alcohol, or someone who is divorced and not paying his child support. No plan is in place to commit homicide against any of these groups, either.

 

I may be wrong but I always thought it was up to God to decide that

 

In Philly, some bars are clubs that require membership. Some are open to the public. I am sure there are reasons for this. Like tax-exempt qualifications for one...

 

Polygamy ...

 

Huh? I was in the Cubs and Scouts for years and I'm not the slightest bit religious. It's not a church group - which is why all that previous talk about the Scouts being Mormon was a bit confusing. It's just a bunch of kids earning badges and going on camps in the bush. I was in the Air Scouts, so we also got to fly planes.

 

Silvery, T2Bruno, As per my earlier threat, I'm prepping some really nice Shanghai style noodles to beat you with should we ever cross paths!

 

MUG!!!