The Courtier's Reply

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"God always resides in the gaps. The fact that these gaps are now outside the universe is very telling."

 

Hokay, with all this philosophising I just have to stick my in.

If there is a god It resides in all things and may hap is all things. We are not god anymore than my little finger is me but we are part of god. An expression or extension of God. And just as my little finger can be injured, maimed and even severed from me so we can be injured, maimed and severed from god.

 

Yes Nakia, but that is no longer the theistic God of the Abrahamic faiths, that is Spinoza's God, the God of the philosopher and of the sage. Theism is limited in its conception of God, theres no room in the universe for this limited conception of God, so God has to move to the last unknown place, but the unknown isnt always the unknowable. Perhaps in our great grandchildrens grandchildrens day we will know what, if anything, lies beyond this universe...wonder what the theists will do then eh?

 

Ah, Nataraja, me thinks it is time for another topic. How I do love this Alley. Let me count the ways. In fact I can think of at least two more topics here.

The theists? Let them seek in the depths of their own souls/spirits whatever. They will find their own way I'm sure.

 

Nataraja, I find two major flaws in the logic of your original post. One, no major scientific field (biology, meteorology, physics, etc.) has proven a lack of need for any god, that EVERYTHING could have easily happened without any kind of deity. At best, they look for explanations under the assumption that GOD DID IT isn't a good enough answer, and have found a lot of answers. Second, even if we did understand all the cogs in the machinery of this universe and how everything interacts with everything and has caused all that now is, that doesn't preclude God.

Now my theology terms aren't too fresh, so that may not fit under Theism, I'm not sure.

 

Most would, yes. Atheists don't believe in God because his existence can't be proven. If proven, most atheists would cease to be atheists. Atheism, for most people, is not a religion, and most atheists don't feel threatened by other people's religions unless they are trying to impose their beliefs and edicts upon them. Their reaction is akin to most of our reactions to Network Marketers offering a chance to "get in at the ground floor" (even though their company has been around for 25 years) at the doorstep.

Now, this is a refreshing thing to see someone else saying. I've always felt like a one man chorus where my perspective on the God of the old testament is concerned. It's nice to see I'm not alone.

 

The Jewish God is, I dunno...a pretty nasty fellow. It is almost like they just went about doing bad stuff, and then later wrote that God commanded it. Just a big nasty jealous God...

I have done a few online quiz things, mostly for my myspace, and the results always say Im an atheist, but thats not true...Im a panentheist. I do believe in God, but any notion of a personal God is just wishful thinking. God isnt a person, God is just...God...or something. I do have a personal god though, Shiva, but I realise that my god is just a watered down version of God. I dont really care though since I take a more Buddhist approach to God...(quoting wikipedia since Im so incredibly lazy...)

On one occasion, when presented with a problem of metaphysics by the monk Malunkyaputta, Buddha responded with a story of a man shot with a poisoned arrow. The man's family summons the doctor to have the poison removed, and the man given an antidote:

"But the man refuses to let the doctor do anything before certain questions can be answered. The wounded man demands to know who shot the arrow, what his caste and job is, and why he shot him. He wants to know what kind of bow the man used and how he acquired the ingredients used in preparing the poison. Malunkyaputta, such a man will die before getting the answers to his questions. It is no different for one who follows the Way. I teach only those things necessary to realize the Way. Things which are not helpful or necessary, I do not teach."

 

One third of the world's population may be nominally Christian but that does not mean that God is a Christian or a Jew. Neither is God a Muslim or Hindu or Taoist or Buddhist or for that matter an Englishman. Assuming that there is a god this being is certainly not human or humanoid. Now that is my

I have said before but I'll say it again. We create god in our own image and likeness. I have my own personal belief but that is strictly what it is, personal.

 

Nakia, I would beg to differ. I don't know about the average person, but my God is not one created in my own image, either physically or psychologically. Nor is my God simply what I aspire to be, or what I would want a god in such a position to be. In fact, many of the personal revelations that I have recieved from my God have been quite suprising. I would never have expected my God to be some of the things that He is, nor would I have wanted Him to be all of them, at least, not until further revelation showed me why.

Any way, my point is that not all of us rely on images of gods fassioned after any part of us. My God isn't just all powerful and infinitely just, loving beyond measure, etc. He is also thoroughly strange and alien, and vastly different from what we humans may expect such a creature to be. He has revealed Himself to be bit by bit, and I fully expect that He is even more of all the things I have said then I currently understand.

EDIT: Sorry, after re-reading that, I realized it got a little bit rambly. My point is that, while some gods are obviously crafted from our own imaginations, and behave just like we do (Zeus, Hera, etc.), and others are idealized versions of us, some of them are not, some of them are quite different from us.

 

Which isn't to say that either isn't imagined.....or not who he says he is. How do you know the revelations God has given you don't really come from Satan? Or the depths of your subconcious? Or your own imagination? Sure, maybe it's the genuine article you are hearing from, but you could just as easily be deluding yourself.....or getting tricked by the other guy. There's no way to prove it either way.

 

That's right, you don't know what the so-called "Jewish God" is - primarily because Judaism supports as many different notions about the nature of God as there are Jews, plus half a doxen for good measure. I doubt you'll find a majority of Jews alive today who truly believe in the God described in the Torah.

 

Thus bringing up one of the most important points to bear in mind while discussing religion: lived religion tends to be rather unlike the holy books it's theoretically based upon.

 

Ah, but you are thinking logically, and most people in the world don't want to think logically. They just want to be comforted that they are doing the right thing, so pointing out that they are ignoring the book that they supposedly call the enlightened absolute truth of God (or the gods) is pointless. I see it all the time with Christians who insist that God supports homosexuality (because it's love or something), or that God hates all war, or, really fun, that God hates Jews (I don't even want to think about the bizarre kind of rationalizations that have to be made for that one).

Basically, a large portion of humanity, and with it most religious communities (I'm guessing Jews here, too), just view religion as a way to support what they are already doing, not as a guide to what they should do.

 

That's an interesting take on it. I especially like it as changing around what's stated in the Bible - that God created humans in his image. (When you think about it, how could the person who wrote that, possibly know that?)

 

@Montresor:

Is thought not allowed to evolve and grow? Must the rules that are almost 5,800 years old be rigidly adhered to, or are people allowed to re-examine their own rules and find new ways to apply them in light of changing circumstances? If Jews hadn't done exactly that, there wouldn't be any Jews today - the YHVH cult described in Leviticus would ahve died out with the destruction of the Temple. Instead, people were able to stretch their minds and come up with new ways to apply old wisdom, and keep the important parts of the religion - the beliefs, as opposed to the trappings - alive.

Please note the JEWS don't believe that the Torah contains Truth, that's a Christian thing. What Jews find in the Torah is wisdom and learning and guidance. Even the most ultra-orthodox sects aren't clamoring for a return to the day of burnt offerings.

The more I read about religious philosophy, the more amusing I find many of these "discussions." I keep reading the same old tired, superficial arguments, and I have to wonder how many people actually tried to think these things through. Answers (*), or at least stronger reasoning that what generally gets put forth, can be had by anyone who's interested enough to try and find them.

(*) Note that I, unlike Mr. Dawkins, believe that there is no single valid answer to any religious question. Not all paths of thought lead to the same destination.

 

I've read all of these arguments before, and will proceed to put forth another one that many of you have likely seen before.

The scientific method here described involves mankind looking at the world around him and piecing together a religious belief based on the infortmation he observes. I can respect that.

However, I (and many others like me) start from the other end (inductively, is what I think it's called) and our reasoning goes like this -- God exists. He is the ultimate being, and is as further above us than we are above the simplest amoeba. He has revealed himself through scripture that has been tailored to our understanding and comprehension at the time. Whatever he does is by definition good, given that his perspective is far, far above ours. Attempts to judge him by human standards fail because he is our superior and knows much more than us.

I can respect that others don't believe that. I can respect that they can find flaws with elements of the scriptures because those scriptures came through flawed humans. But what gets me right in the gizzard are statements like "anyone who believes religion is a weak minded moron." (which no one here has said point blank but similar ideas are floated.) I'm well acquainted with many religious people both within and outside my faith and they are highly intelligent, successful people -- not the morons they are purported to be. That sort of talk is what gets me hostile, just as I'm sure atheists in ages past got hostile with religious people telling them they were the stupid ones for not believing.

 

Very nicely put. Good to have you back, LKD.

 

The following is what I think about this whole Biblical thing. Stress on I think.

The Torah or Old Testament is a combination historical and philosophical work. It includes stories that were handed down orally from early times and shows the growth in religious philosophy as well as telling the historical growth of the Hebrew people. I find it a rather fun read as well as educational and as Rally says

. Now Christianity came along and I personally find the teaching of Jesus an excellent guide to life but the New Testament was still written by humans and it was human beings that decided what would be included in the Christian Bible.

I believe that Judaism has another body of religious teaching. Rallymama would know about that. So those who make judgements about what is Judaism are basing it on half knowledge and not the whole picture.

Not all Christian believe that the Bible is the undiluted, infallible Word of God. And we have a myriad of beliefs and denominations because different people interpret the same thing differently.

Sure the early interpretation of God was as a rather brutal god because life was brutal but by the time you reach the later prophets the interpretation of God was more caring but YHVH was still a national god not an international god.

One thing I'll say for Paul, he was a great PR man. Took a cult and spread it around enough that with a little help from Constantine we now have an international religion. Don't forget though that 2/3rds of the world are still not Christian. Lot's of room out there for a variety of beliefs.

Don't like the god you find in Genesis? I see no reason why you have to believe in him or for that matter any god. Neither do I see any reason for getting upset about it but then I was one of the lucky ones who wasn't brought up in any constrained heavy religious atmosphere. I walk my own path and leave it to others to walk theirs as long as they don't get in my way.

 

Remember the Council of Constantinople, where High ranking Priests decided what would be included in the New Testament, and what would be excluded, so NO-ONE knows what the true New Testament would have stated about God. Thus Christians have to use their own reasoning to understand God.

I just thought i'd add that, i might add to it tommorrow.