The death penalty?

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Damedog, I agree that we need to take a long hard look at our prison system with an eye towards rehabilitation. That said, none of the types of reform we are talking about are really going to apply to a death penalty discussion. Society is made no safer when we "reform" inmates who will never again see the light of day, and those inmates should be the lowest priority for reform. We should focus on reforming the system as it applies to people who will eventually be released first. If, in addition to lowering recidivism, the programs are shown to have a positive effect on behavior and overall safety within prison, then such programs should be (carefully) introduced at higher security facilities.

 

Agreed, but I think I may have misrepresented my view on the death penalty inmates. When I said "study criminal behavior before things like the death penalty should be considered", I meant that the people on death row should be studied and interviewed at length before they were killed, to see if we can find any common factors in what led them to that and try to find a means of prevention. After that, we should either kill them or give them life, whatever is cheaper.

 

Just remember, the constitution was written by a group of slave owners who wanted to convincve you that all men were created equal.

when someone wants to rally people to their cause they find a method of manipulation, the constitution was like the 10 commandments, the ultimate method of leading people against their enemy, or... the current economical leaders of america who didnt want to pay taxes to a european monarch, and how well did it work.

today, its a crock of $h!t

 

Shoshino, you appear to have our Declaration of Independence and Constitution confused. Our Constitution was not written until 4 years after after our revolutionary war -- and more than a decade after our Declaration of Independence and (largely unsuccessful) Articles of Confederation were written. Not all of the same players were involved in writing the Constitution, and a lot of compromises had to be made in order to ensure that all 13 states would be willing to ratify it, especially since the states did not expect their delegates to abandon the Articles of Confederation in favor of a completely new document.

That our founders were hypocritical is obvious -- all people are, to one degree or another. Incidentally, the Constitution was silent on the issue of slavery until the passage of the 14th amendment, which explicitly banned it. The 14th amendment didn't overturn any previous amendments (not even the oft-misinterpreted 10th), but it did end the practice of slavery and cause our bill of rights to apply to state governments as well as federal.

 

I wonder if the death penalty isn't an effective deterrent precisely because the system that controls it is so inefficient. While exceptions always exist, people who commit murder generally are not big picture/look-way-down-the-road types, so the potential of being killed twenty years later for something you do today might not really register with them. Whereas, if it was known that you'd be killed the day after you were caught (just to illustrate the point), that might be a different story. 'The next few days' are generally within the conceptual grasp of most people.

Anyway, if Drew's financial breakdown is accurate, I'd say that's enough reason for states not to kill anybody. That's from a practical standpoint, but from the standpoint of justice, I'm still on the fence as to whether it's worth it or not. I have absolutely zero compassion for people who murder other people, but these are mitigating factors imo:

• As has been stated, it's kind of hard to be really certain they did it all the time.
• In terms of relief for relatives of the victims, this is conjecture on my part because I've never been in that situation, but ... I kind of suspect that your life is basically ruined at that point anyway, and while killing the guy who ruined your life and ended the life of your loved one might satisfy a sort of spurious desire for payback, I doubt that it really resolves anything. The victim doesn't come back; nothing is really made right; you just get the satisfaction of knowing that the guy who f***ed you over is dead.
• As pertains to the above, hokey as it may sound, I think it's been fairly well established (though I can't cite any studies here, just my basic impression) that forgiveness is a better method of moving on. I would personally be loathe to forgive anyone who murdered a loved one and would prefer to grind the revenge ax for the rest of my life, but I'm just stubborn that way. I think people on average would be better served by letting it go, tall an order as that may seem. To let go means you live again, eventually, while to hang on means you just exist in the void of loss and despair. On a lesser scale, just apply the concept to lost or broken relationships. You don't get over them by hanging onto your anger and frustration.

I realize I don't speak for everybody on all that, just putting it out there.

 

I think revenge is a right that people have, to properly see someone properly dealt with for doing something terrible is a right, the lack of the justice system in the UK for dealing with criminals has lead to an increasingly prevelent vigilante society, which is far more dangerous then a good justice system. Only a couple of years back a pediatrician was attacked because a vigilante mistook him for a pedophile, because pedophiles were revealed by the papers to be getting off with light sentences, there were a sting of attacks across the country. Just around the corner from where I live years ago, the regulars of a local pub kneecapped a guy who was beating up kids in a park, the police said they couldnt do anything about it so the people did it.
as Ive said earlier, all I see today in politicians and vocal members of society is nothing but pussification, these days noone will do what needs to be done, noone wants to do it I will grant, but someone has to, or people will do it for themselves.

 

On an only slightly related note - I found this quip from one of the 'Occupy Wall Street' people both incisive and hilarious:

Congratulations to that anonymous person for putting it so well. That one's perfect for a bumper sticker or a t-shirt.