The New Catastrophe in Gaza

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I have said on previous occassions in this thread that I felt the response by Isreal was extreme. However, I have waffled back and forth on what an appropriate response would have been.

I still do not see Israel guilty of provocation (at least no more than the Palestinians), because although there have been Israeli strikes since the pullout of Gaza, there have been suicide bombers since then too. Frankly I don't remember who started it after the pullout, because you lose track after a while. Palestinian blows himself up, Israelis send gunships and blow up several buildings. Lather, rinse, repeat ad naseum.

That's the front runner for the Understatement of the Year Award - not to mention the title of Master of the Obvious. I think it goes without saying that the guerrillas didn't anticipate that Israel would turn their country into a rubble pile because of their actions. They probably wouldn't have done it if they had known. Of course, if they wouldn't have done it if they had known, then it only shows that Israel's actions actually are a disincentive to future attacks.

I think it would have been more informative to hear what the expected Israeli response was.

 

And yet you made the Palestinians out as the provocateur. No offense, Aldeth, but that's to show how the understanding of the conflict took on a life of its own. Troubling.

@Nakia (in case you are still with us)

Just wanted to share with you that the UK, holding the mandate for Palestine at the time, tried to prevent Israel and deny the Zionists. But as the would-be Israelis resorted to violence, the matter was taken before the UN.

 

If you were right, the data would support it. I've already shown that 35% of the Palestinian voters that actually voted support neither Hamas or the PLO. You were saying that all Palestinians support them and you were way off. There are other issues, like who has the funding, that you have also ignored, making an argument that even half of Palestine supports Hamas a highly dubious one. Frankly, personal experience means nothing when it isn't supported by data.

 

But I had said I didn't know which act came first. It should have been assumed that it could have been vice versa. That's where the "I don't know who started it" part comes in. So yeah, I listed the Palestinians first, but also stated that I had no idea what the order was.

In fact, depending on the situation, they both have probably provoked the other side.

Sometimes, it's the Palestinians provoking the Israelis who then respond, and other times it's the Israelis provoking the Palestinians who then respond. The responses or provocations are different based on the type of weaponry and technologies possessed by the different sides.

 

To explain myself - I was referring to your previous post:

Only when I objected to that, pointing at Israel's omnious tactics, did you reconsider. Or at least the way our argument went leads me to think so.

This is not meant as an attack on your person. I just feel that an one-sided approach to the problem has settled in - due to medial meddlings.

 

And to clarify my point, I do think that the kidnapping of Isareli soldiers by Palestinians and Lebonese was one of the instances where Palestine and Lebanon provoked Israel. I don't recall any recent attacks by Israel in the days leading up to the kidnapping. The "I don't know who started it" was referring to after the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, as I honestly don't know what caused the violence to resume at that point.

This latest example with the kidnappings was pretty cut and dry if you ask me. The last round of violence was started by Palestine/Lebanon. It was the Israelis that escaled it to the point we see now, and they probably shouldn't have escalated it as far as they did. But like I said before, while the Lebonese and Palestinians certainly didn't expect the Israelis to react the way they did, they certainly had to expect some kind of reaction.

 

That part was clear. Though it puzzles me to hear it said that kidnapping was an uncalled for provocation - for there never was such a thing as Israel leaving the Palestinians be. Attacks *were* launched by Israel. Now you can say that the Palestinian/Lebanese kidnapping has to be regarded as unrelated to that. I think it more as a response - to the attacks specifically, or to the fact that Israel generally did not allow for a change of hearts. Gaza might have bee an opportunity for that. Perhaps not immediately, but in the long run.
Where are they now...

An exchange of prisoners was hoped for, I heard. Cause that's what happened before. And that's all the kidnapping was about to the best of my knowledge.

 

Well, to move the discussion beyond who's to blame, any thoughts on what should be done?

The phrase "international peace-keeping force" is being bandied about a lot these days, with the idea that as part of a negotiated settlement, such a force would, in conjunction with the Lebanese Army, occupy a zone along the Israeli border in southern Lebanon, with Hizbullah not allowed south of the Litani River.

This might sound good on paper, but which country in their right mind is going to want to contribute troops to this force? Who's going to have the stomach to commit their troops as a buffer between a rampant Israel and a bloodied Hizbullah? Didn't Hizbullah burst onto the international stage blowing up nearly 300 American and French "peacekeepers" in 1982?

 

Yeah, such a thing has been tried before, to not very much effect. I volunteered for being stationed there back in those days btw, but that's another story.

The UN soldiers in the middle of a conflict beween Israel and Hezbollah, could not do anything but watch missiles and shells fly over and hope none of those would go down early and land on their heads. Not a mission that leaves you with a very satisfactory feeling i'd say, and my guess is it's not going to be any different this time. A waste of time really, and possibly a waste of lifes too. Let them kill eachother, they seem to enjoy it, no need for Europeans to get their hands dirty in a neverending conflict.

 

The whole thing started when some Israelis soldier s fired a rocket on an Palestinian beach wiping off an innocent family (they managed to hit only women and children).

That was followed by a statement of Hamas that said that the ceasefire is over and Israel will pay ten times the blood of these dead.
That gave a very good excuse to Israels army to invade Gaza strip and take under custody (Kidnapp) several members of the Palestinian goverment (notice it did not took any member of Hamas that hold no position in the Parliament, only politicians).
Hamas responded with the kidnapping of one Israeli soldier (minor officer) which they said they will free if their members go free too.
Israel responded with combat operations in Gaza, in order to find the soldier.
In the same time Israel started war operations in Libanon trying to root out Hamas from the refugee camps that Palestinians have there.
And then while an Israeli unit has inflitrated in the Aita al Shaab area, they fell on resistance 7 died (Al Jazeera claimed that) and 2 captured.

So in fact Hejbollah did the condemnable thing of keeping in prison 2 Israel soldiers that were found in foreign soil. Both sides have agreed that the whole incident took place in Libanon area.

And i guess from the whole incident Palestinians were the ones who are provoking.

The problem for the UN is what the population of the area will hear that their mission will be.

Israels defence Minister has stated with much arrogance that his country sees with a good eye the positioning of NATO troops to protect their borders with Syria (since the area is disputed by Israel to be Syrian territory, as if Syria asked for it).

So in effect he just put a target on these people, because they will defend Israel.

I hate it when they mess up so bad and then rely on their friends (USA) (or should i say peers?) to bring in the cleaning ladies and the cannon fodder.

Rice of course in the Rome meeting did not said NATO should do it but (as far as i have understood) UN should do it, since US army is already stretched.
If i am not mistaken Bush announced the reinforcement of the Iraq-stationed force and in Afganistan things are getting worse every day too.

I fear that negotiatons between the confronting parties will be far less than viable now and for some time to come.
The solution will not come from the politicians that is for sure. After all, none of them (and i speak for all Arabs, Israels) has ever been in the battlefield after he assumed the position. And people do tend to forget how hard things are, once they hit the easy way.
I fear that a solution may have to be imposed on them. That will see things in the not so far future quieten a lot.
But these are my feelings and understandings.

 

Can you substantiate this claim? Because the last time I heard this mentioned, it could as well have been an unexploded bomb (which was set off accidentaly) responsible for the death of the palestinian family.

Again, I thought it was pretty widely acknowledged that the Israeli patrol was in Israeli territory when they were attcked and 2 soldiers were taken prisonier (and the rest killed).

 

Did they now ? And you can back that up with a reliable source too i suppose ? And if they indeed fired a missile onto a Palestinian beach, wouldn't you say they had at least a very good reason for that ? As in retaliation for another suicide bombing perhaps ? Because, and i've said this before, Israel is not known for using unprovoked force.

It's also getting kinda tiresome the way Palestinians react when women and children are the victim in an assault. Whenever Israeli women and children become victims, it's the will of Allah and it's celebrations everywhere, but when Palestinian women and children are the victim, they start crying and bitching about the big bad evil Zionist who attacks their innocents.

 

Will any of these do?

Beach strike shakes Hamas cease-fire
Israel faces criticism over Gaza beach shelling
Eyewitness: Gaza beach shelling
Israel: Investigate Gaza Beach Killings

Edit - More Shrapnel clue to Gaza beach shelling

[ July 27, 2006, 16:01: Message edited by: Dendri ]

 

I guess what created doubts on my part as to who was responsible for the beach incident was the fact that apparently the palestinian authorities did not allow access of international groups to the site.

From one of the articles you link:

Anyhow, I will admit to the fact that Israel uses disproportionate force too many times, which results in civilian deaths. However, I think they mostly act in defense (well, or following this somewhat misguided strategy of detterence). And in my opinion, is risible to claim that the Hamas actions have been caused by Israeli shelling. Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel forever. If they were interested in peace, they could have stopped when Israel withdrew from Gaza.

 

While expanding expansions within the West Bank?

Settlers say that the land, which Palestinians want for a state, is theirs by Biblical birthright

 

khaavern - there is no refusal on side of the Palestinian authorities to admit an independent investigation. Lest I have failed to hear/read of it. Links?

That quote of yours is so taken out of context. It is an advice, a recommendation - not an accusation, as which it must be read the way you put it forth.

Disproportinate force? Murder, terror, carnage are the words you are avoiding. Gods, in cold blood they blew up picknickers on vacation at a beach! What would be your phrasing were those dead Israelis, snuffed by a suicide bomber? Where is the difference?
Never mind tho. I suppose I have had my fill of euphemism and warped reality. Send in them apologists - Israel is at it again.

 

Let me get this straight: because of some comments by an Israeli politician, Arab militants would have no choice but to target any international peacekeepers, thus making any casualties among the peacekeepers Israel's fault?

 

From one apologist to the other then: They never run out of reason to have at families at the beach in that case? Or of what relevance are these militant groups for the Gaza shelling?