The "Reality" of a Personal Evil

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Mathetais - As you well know, this decision is not an easy one to make. There is the 'cut loss' theory stating that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but there has to be a bit more to it than that. Many of us have been taught to question the unknown and to only accept answers with hard fast proof. To accept something solely on the grounds of faith is unheard of.
BTA's question is a valid one: Do we need God in order to be moral and good?

 

If moral values are simply impressed upon us by society, where do we get these turnaround lives from? There have been many people who left a hedonistic lifestyle to serve God. Are you throwing that into the lap of society as well?

 

While we're on the subject of evil, what about the 1st(?) Commandment. Are non-Christians inherently evil? Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Humanists and so forth all live their lives by a moral framework, which I believe is as valid as the Christian one, but are not Christian- so in the eyes of Christians are they sinners?

P.S Apologies for forgetting that Jews and Christians worship the same god and are covered by the same first commandment

[This message has been edited by Ironbeard (edited June 29, 2001).]

 

Ironbeard - short answer (no offense on the "short" thing )

YES.

Long answer - Jews, Muslims and CHRISTIANS are all essentially evil. Catch that - Christians included.

That's the whole root of Christianity. We are all sinful. We all lust, lie, steal, cheat and fall short of the standard at least once in our lives.

Judaism & Islam confront the "sin problem" with law. By performing righteous acts they believe that it is possible to find redemption (That is way over simplified, I know!)

Christianity confronts the "sin problem" with grace. We do not have the moral firepower to get ourselves out of the predicament our sins have gotten us into (we've "earned" damnation). That is why we need a savior who was perfect and divine to pay for them. That's where Jesus comes in to the picture.

 

Hmmmm. Looks like some really basic theology I've overlooked. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to an unenlightened atheist . What I was really trying to ask however (and I guess my poor syntax and ignorance of basic theology made me misunderstood) was whether or not you believed that subscribing to a particular religion made one person "better" than another.

 

Subscribing to a religion does absolutely nothing for you except perhaps to give you better morals. As a Christian, I believe it's a personal relationship with God that makes you "better" than another. I keep the quotes because it is not you that is becoming better, per se; it is the denial of self and yielding to His leadership that defines a Christian's life.

 

To piggy-back off Capstone's statment . . .

I am a Christian, but do not consider myself "better" than anyone else. It is Grace that has saved me, not my works (so I can't boast or think that I'm better).

I do believe that the life that I have in the Kingdom of God is far more "real" and "fulfilling" than life outside of the kingdom.

So, if you're an Atheist & I'm a Christian, I'm not BETTER than you. However, I do believe that I have the assurance of eternal life at the right hand of God, while you lack that assurance.

Which leads me to my "The Church needs to get it's ACT together Rant" . . .

If we "Christians" are saved, happy & blessed, then why does the church normally close its doors to the differnet thinking, different looking people in the World? We should be the most active, the most diverse, and the most welcoming group the world has ever seen.

My goal is to help people of all walks of life: Goths, Geeks & Geriatrics . . . all understand the message of the Gospel.

Rant & Sermon over (for now )

 

Lemme start with spamming once again parts about evil in person (creature) from different opinions...


Lokken:
In his downfall, Lucifer tricked 1/3 of the heavens angels to follow him...I would believe evil to very clever.

Marnix:
I've heard stories about occult things happened from persons of who I know they don't lie.

Sir Bel:
As for Angels and Devils and such...feel like I have someone that looks out for me

Kris:
And as such I don't believe in personification of Evil nor good...I am a scientist not a sage.

Nerd:
People give personification to evil because we refuse to belive that one being is responsible for good and bad.

Mat:
I also believe that there are supernatural beings that are fundamentally evil.
"the Devil"...is not elemental evil...It is his will and thinking that has become twisted and evil.

Vandalore:
About when I was thirteen years old, I was confronted by some sort of a demon.

Marnix again:
You can not prove that God exists. It's a matter of Faith and Believe.

Mat again:
The Adversary (aka Satan or Lucifer) is called both evil and the Father of Lies...

1 - Reasoning leads to believing
2 - Believing leads to reasoning

Moeken:
BTA's question is a valid one: Do we need God in order to be moral and good?


...Other posts in this thread turned into objective (absolute) truth, morality, neutrality, etc...

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Ok, now beliefs (rules) of mine *evil grin*

1. I can move any mountain. If I trully believe I can.
2. There are creatures in this world not discovered yet.
3. If you believe someone, only then he/she/it can trick you.
4. It is impossible to measure everything. But it is possible to make a word for it.
5. The powers of human brain are not completely discovered. We only know it's biological display.
6. There is a thing called collective consciousness - the power of belief grows with number of people with the same belief.

A conclusion on the topic question:
The evil impersonalized in a creature(s) exists. We made it - with power of our beliefs. It is created, it lives.
This makes another my belirf - we also created good creature (let's say god or gods) with our willpower.

And what does evil entity do today?
His prime rule is to make us NOT to believe that it exists. His existence was made just to oppose/destroy the good entity - if we stop to believe that evil one exists, we won't need the good one and we'll stop to believe that he exists too. And they'll both vanish forever.
I won't number what sorts of things this evil entity does - you all felt it on your own skin. But you don't believe it was work of an evil entity. The more you don't believe it exists - more you don't need good entity. Will he succeed in destroying itself - and the good entity too?

This is my opinion. It does not have any links to morality and truth. All different cultures have different moral scales and all have different truth basis. Those two things are not nor can be related to evil entity. They are just parts of human acting. Unless evil enitity uses them to kill the belief.

And last of my blasphemies - there is a third entity not related to evil and good entities. That third one is not good nor evil. It is a Creator.
I do not believe in Big Bang out of nothing. I believe in shaping things by pure will.
You can't say "Creator is good - he made beautiful nature and universe."
You can't say "Creator is evil - he made ugly creatures and space objects that endanger Earth."
Creator is the one who gave us will to use. And we used it. And created two beings in which evil and good are impersonalized. But, does he care? Does he even care that we mix him up with beings we created by our mass willpower?

Why do I make to believe in things this way? Because I was victim of human willpowers. Never physical powers. I'm not givin' you shit. Yes, you can call it witchcraft.
The mind rules over strength - body is only for hire.

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Important:

I'm sorry if I offended someone with my beliefs - it was not my intension. This is only my small opinion on the topic, I do not intend that someone takes me as I'm suggesting that my belief is the only right belief.
Believe whatever you wish. Whatever you experienced. Whatever you hope for. But don't believe in things just because others want to make you to believe in them. Don't believe in things just because others EXPECT you to believe.
And I'm not atheist.