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The Tables have Turned.

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Sir Dargorn, Jun 29, 2003.

  1. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    The more academic "don't hurt any minorities by speaking badly about them" is the weapon of the weak - and it only works by establishing a "moral codex" of what's politically correct and what's not. After that's done the people independently enforce that codex, as a result of group dynamics.
    One might say that PCness is the surrogate for the lost moral consensus or codex based on religion as religious values much less became a common ground among the population.

    Cynics may understand it as the result of a process of "streamlining" political candidates: How can I speak to an audience without repulsing anyones feelings and prevent people from turning to my opponent.


    As for version C: It only works when you you couple it with public opinion making, only that way it can show effect and in order to show effect you need strong media support.

    When some punk on a street corner sais that sentence he's just that, another moron. It only works when distributed by a well established source, media or poiticians.
    Establishing an understanding that dissent is despicable or politically not correct is the starter. The effects of political correctness, or the pressure of the group that has swallowed that ensures it works. This version is the weapon of the strong.

    The mechanism for all versions isn't different. PCness works either way, for minorities and for majorities.
     
  2. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Well, public opinion can also mean the opinion of a small group of people. I had a quarrel with a certain person. Then she went on, telling anyone who wanted to know, that I was a nazi and a racist. Sticks and stones won't break no bones, but word's guarantee a certain notoriety. No smoke without a fire, that's a stigma not so easy to shake off, sometimes. Rumours are a pain in the ass.
     
  3. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Clearly.
     
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Well, what has been said in this thread and some recent contributions to college admission racial and similar preferences brings to my mind quite a useful example that can be use to illustrate the situation:

    A black man says "I'm black and proud of it". What's your reaction? What's the reaction of the majority of people? And what if a white man says "I'm white and proud of it?" He has done exactly the same what the black man has done. This analogy extends by including the different reception of a gay person saying "I'm gay and proud of it" and a straight person saying "I'm straight and proud of it". The first one is a freedom fighter and the second one is a racist - and both have done the same. By the rights of basic induction, what applies to one applies to the other. Black or white and gay or straight issues don't touch many societies... but even female and male pattern tends to follow the same rule.
     
  5. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Well, as this is a rhetorical question, reaction is following reception. There's no innocence, only connotation.

     
  6. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I am pretty much in agreement with joacquin, Laches et al here, and I’m not going to bother repeating what has already been said (late to the party again :( ), other than one quick comment – sometimes the price that society pays for allowing discrimination in the first place is an over-compensation in the other direction until the discrimination is no longer a factor. The danger is that you may create the same situation that you had originally, except that the roles are reversed. I don’t think we are there yet, but in certain cases, we seem to be getting close, and it may be time to start gently applying the brakes.

    @chevalier
    The problem with standing up and saying “I’m white and proud of it” (or straight, male, etc.) is that, in Western society, these groups are generally not, and haven’t been, discriminated against, so the obvious question would be, why would you want make a statement like that? Usually, a statement like that is made as a verbal version of chest-thumping, either in a patriotic manner ("I’m Canadian and proud of it"), or as a way of counteracting discrimination or insults towards the group that you are saying you are a part of. So while I am not ashamed to be a white, straight male, I’m not exactly proud of it either; it’s just who and what I am.
     
  7. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Neither am I proud of my being whatever I am, but if one guy can be proud of his whatever quality, than why not the other guy? If you say you are proud of something you first mean you're proud of it and whatever else is derived from your words is subjective interpretation, completely obscure to someone ignorant of the realia. To whatever extent you disagree with me, you can't say the guy isn't in fact proud of being so. Thus I have a right to be proud of being white equal to any black man's right to be proud of being black. As I've already said I hardly have any reason to be proud of anything, but let's suppose I go to a party at local authority's and say 'I'm white and proud of it' - goodbye chevvy, goodbye carreer prospects.

    Last but not least, I can't agree with that heteros, whites or males aren't discriminated. In fact they are. There's plenty of people who would like to be coloured, homosexual, or female and not white, straight or male as they are. The reason is that they feel guilty, yes, guilty (you know that whole media work - let's all apologise and atone for being born white) for being what they are, or just that more attention and much preference is given to those group's members.

    In Poland we don't have much trouble with racism or homosexualism, but religious issues bring conflicts. For example you may say whatever you will about Catholics and you'll only be praised for open-mindedness, independence or whatever, but if you say anything about any other religion... or worse even - about atheism... see you in the court. What's more, if your adversary happens to be of a minority religion then you're attacking whole his community if you but disagree with him on desired washing powder prices :rolleyes:
     
  8. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I agree that saying you’re proud to be white/straight/male is not necessarily a discriminatory statement, but I’ll say it again – why would feel the need to make such a statement in the first place? I understand what you are saying - it seems unfair that you can't make these statements without being branded - but unless you’re in a situation where whites/straights/males are being insulted or demeaned in the same way that blacks/gays/females have historically been, I don’t understand what it is that you would be trying to accomplish.

    As for whites/straights/males being discriminated against, I said that generally that does not occur. Certainly there are specific cases where that does happen, but I think the first paragraph of my previous post addresses that. And the guilt factor is largely self-imposed by the group to which you belong as a recognition that perhaps that group has behaved unfairly in the past. Again, see the first paragraph of my previous post.
     
  9. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Well, to be blunt, the usual person who wears a white pride T-shirt is a school drop-out, with a shaved head, a breath that stinks for miles, usually is found in packs, bars he visits have a bad reputation and have soon to be closed for running out of normal customers or because the neighbours are complaining about all the garbage that is piling around it. He's blaming the whole wide world and especially all kind of foreigners for not being able to get a job. But never bothered to learn to properly read and write.
     
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