Thief questions

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Just think of it as free close range true sight which is just awesome. You were going to wear boots of speed right? Well that will put you in close quickly and then you can run away if needed.

 

Hmm... now I'm tempted to dual at 13, but then I'll miss out on a lot of early game backstabbing. Then again, I do plan on keeping Yoshimo around until Immy returns.

"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the world is blind to my passing."
"All the wor-"

I wish he was a little better at hiding already.

Say... how does burgling work? I had to steal that stupid Lathander statuette, but I reloaded a couple of times after the alarm went off. Seems like the alarm goes off if anyone can see the safe you take it from. Hiding in shadows didn't do anything here. Dawnmaster Kreel walks around a lot and the guards go away at night, so a non-thief seems just as capable of stealing the statuette. I was kind of disappointed when Yoshimo immediately became visible when he took it (and set off the alarm.) Am I doing it wrong?

 

It's not worth waiting longer than level 9 with dualclassing, 1,000,000 fighter XP spent means 4-5 less thief levels even after dualing is complete, that's about 11 hitpoints, 113 skillpoints, 4-5 HLAs, ... for barely anything which supports the thief role. Level 13 is only worth it if you don't use your thief options for battle or cheat up your XP to the XP cap.

The good thing about having Yoshimo in your party is that you can ignore locks and traps (as higher level character he'll yield more XP anyway) and concentrate in stealth from the beginning, making your character an effective backstabber right from the start of the dualing period.

 

It is certainly possible - just inadvisable - to wait until Level 13 to dual class. (You'll get yet another proficiency point as compared to 9, and you'll get the automatic +1/2 attack per round bonus that all fighter/paladin/rangers get at 13.) However, you're really waiting a LONG TIME to have both classes active. You will complete the majority of SoA as either a fighter or a thief.

Level 13 Fighter requires 1,250,000 XPs. Level 14 Thief requires 880,000 XPs. So you'll need 2,130,000 XPs to have both of them active. To put that in perspective, a full party of six characters will generally earn about 3,000,000 XPs each by the end of SoA. So you're only going to have your character the way you want him for about 1/3 of the game. (Less actually - the XPs your really start ramping up in Chapter 5. You'll probably complete 5 of the 7 Chapters before hitting that mark.)

If you're going to wait that long, to me it only would make me want to play a multi-class more. For the same number of experience points, you'll be a 12th level fighter, and a few thousand XPs shy of 15th level as a thief.

My argument for multi classing really boils down to two factors. 1) The big thing is HLAs. Once you start earning HLAs in ToB, they are going to be your go-to skills. Multi classed characters can chose from both sets of HLAs, and they can mix and match anyway they want - you can pick a thief HLA when earning a fighter level up, and vice versa. And there's a lot of skills you'll want. All 3 of the special thief traps are good, and assassination is a must have (unless you're a single class thief). On the fighter side, you're probably going to have mostly greater whirlwinds. All the deathblows and greater deathblows aren't going to be worth it to you, because they only work up to a certain level of monster, and assassination is going to have a huge damage output that nothing is immune to (unless such a creature is immune to backstab - that's what whirlwind and greater whirlwind are for.)

2.) Single classed varieties of fighters and thieves plateau fairly early. A figher essentially stops improving beyond level 20. You don't get any more increases to THAC0, you've only been getting +3 hp/level for a while, and the only real improvement is in your HLAs. Thieves are even worse. Their backstab multiplier of x5 maxes out at Level 13. You still earn 25 thieving skill points to distribute upon level up, but at a certain point, those bonuses are superfluous. You probably have bonuses from a high dexterity score, and have equipped yourself with items that improve your abilities further. By the time I start ToB, I usually have 100 or more in all my thieving abilities, and that's with a multi classed thief. Sure, a single classed thief can have in excess of 200 in everything by the end of ToB, but that's far in excess of everything you'll need to do. (As an example, I am unaware of any benefit of going over 100% in detect illusion and set traps. I also do not believe that there's any benefit of exceeding 100% in find traps or pick locks, although I will concede that many of characters have more than 100%, because I raise them to 100% to guarantee success in the early going, and then later equip items that raise it further.)

So my thinking on dual versus multi classed characters is that the multi class is significantly better in the early part of the game - certainly better all the way up to the point where you re-activate the abilities of your first class. Then once your re-activate your first class abilities, the dual classed character is better, but then shortly after that, HLAs become available, and the multi classed character again is the superior choice. Prior to the release of ToB, I was of the exact opposite opinion, because there were no HLAs, and SoA ends at the exact point that dual classed characters are noticeably better than multi classed characters (i.e., right before you hit 3 million XPs, and HLAs become available).

 

Though one should not forget that hurling maze traps is pretty fun and only doable with a single class Bounty Hunter (or you dual him very late, but that would be impracticable).

In my opinion the Swashbuckler and Assassin are outdone by the multis from a powergame perspective (but still fun to play), but the BH is pretty unique.

 

Very well put, Aldeth. You have made me reconsider yet again.

As for the dual versus multi issue, when comparing THAC0s, don't forget to include the Kensai bonus; a Kensai 13/Thief 14 dual (2.13 million XP) has a THAC0 of 4 (including the Kensai bonus), which the Fighter/Thief multi can't match until 4.5 million XP. So not so bad. The dual also has +4 damage (which, if I'm not mistaken, translates to +20 backstab damage), -2 AC, -3 Speed Factor (which, allegedly, is very helpful when backstabbing with staves), and a lot more hit points.

I've been playing a level 9 Kensai for a while now, and I am obviously not getting the full Thief experience. Low level Kensai suck, and Yoshimo is not a very good backstabber. Neither of those things is changing any time soon. However, I really want to get that backstabbing vibe going. Having a few Thief levels in the party to take care of locks and traps is convenient, but nothing more. I'm hoping that a hardcore backstabber really changes the game. A multi would probably make for a better overall character, but I think the Kensai will be worth it if I go all-in on the backstabbing.

Kreel simply walked away after I talked to him. Seems like Thieves have no advantage whatsoever here.

Agreed. That certainly sounds awesome.

 

This is true - and that's why I said there is a period in the game - specifically after reactivating your first class and prior to getting HLAs - where the dual class is the superior option. But this is transient. Your THAC0 for your Fighter-Thief takes a bit longer to catch up, but you will eventually equal and then exceed that of a Kensai-Thief, because you aren't continuing to level as a Kensai.

You're right on the backstab, but I don't think the other items you list are particularly significant.

The AC is no factor at all, because F/T can wear leather armor, and the AC benefit (and many ancillary attributes of many of these armors) greatly exceed the bonus of 2 you get for being a kensai.

The -3 speed factor is useful in melee, but won't matter a lick when you backstab. The whole point of the backstab is that they can't see you, so the speed of your weapon is irrelevant. There's no such thing as a enemy who can foil a backstab attempt because you have a bad speed factor.

With the hit points, you'll certainly have more, but not a ton more. Let's look at the K13/T14. (Although for the purposes of hit point calculation, the total is nearly the same regardless of whether you dual at 9 or 13. Still the dual at level 13 will yield slightly more, so I'll go with that for best case scenario.) I'll assume an 18 in constitution and maximum hit points per level up. An equal experienced multiclass option will be F12/T14.

Kensai up to level 9 will earn up to 14 hps per level up. Subtotal: 14 x 9 = 126.
Kensai level 10-13 will earn 3 hps per level up. Subtotal 3 x 4 = 12.
Thief earns no hps for level 1-13, and then earns 2 hps at level 14 Subtotal = 2.
Total: 140 hps

The F/T will earn half the fighter hps per level up to level 9. Subtotal: 7 x 9 = 63.
The F/T will earn half the thief hps per level, but will receive the full constitution bonus, so 5 per level up to level 10. Subtotal: 5 x 10 = 50.
Then after that, the F/T only gets 1 hp per level up after that, regardless of whether it's a F or T level up. So 3 for the fighter, 4 for the thief. Subtotal: 3 + 4 = 7.
Total: 120 hps

IMO, a difference of 20 once you're over 100 isn't a lot. The difference between, say, 30 and 50 for example, is huge. But not so much between 120 and 140. And that's assuming you don't dual until level 13.

 

In regards to backstabbing Yoshimo is just like a normal thief, not better, not worse. It helps if you have Edwin cast 2 strength spells in a row at him for 18/00 strength and give a good weapon to him.

 

Use Any Item.

The Thief Guide stressed the importance of low Speed Factor, in particular for hitting a moving target. I've been stabbing stuff in the back with Yoshimo for the past hour (now that I retrieved Usuno +4 from the first level of Watcher's Keep), though I have not yet run across such a situation. Perhaps it will matter later, when I have the Staff of the Magi and Staff of the Ram to abuse.

Good idea, but I'll just lend him the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. It was the first thing I bought. It is currently good for +24 damage. EDIT: Oh, wait, no... Strength bonuses don't get multiplied. Just +6, then.

 

I do not believe UAI will allow you to use an item forbidden by class or kit -- for example a mage/thief cannot use a two-handed sword even with UAI. If true then your kensai/thief cannot use armor.

Speed can be important in a backstab, but by the time you get good enough to rely on backstab you'll be using magic weapons with a speed factor of zero anyway. Each magic plus of a weapon reduces its speed by one.

 

Actually you can wear armor with UAI and a kensai/thief. They can also wield a two handed sword though you will still lack proficiency and you still cannot backstab with it. NOte that problem also is an issue with weapons restricted to thieves like the staff of the magi. You can use the staff but you cannot back stab with it since it is not a thief weapon (you should be able to as it is a staff, a thief type weapon, but the game sees that it is restricted from thieves so no go just like Valygars katana). This is why there is some appeal to kensai thieves. Personally I find the multiclass far better but some prefer the slight boosts from kensai.

The reason why thieves tend to not use some items is due to other factors such as restricting thief skills (most better armors) and lack of backstab (all new non-ranged weapons).

Another issue is that UAI does not change ability score requirements so even with UAI if you lack the 17 or 18 cha needed to wear keldorns armor then you still cannot wear it even with UAI (many unique items have strange restrictions like that).

 

You scared me there for a second, but I tried it out (using the console to level up) and it works. This is the whole point of Kensai/Thief and Wizard Slayer/Thief duals.

 

I recall clearly that my mc kensai-thief used the shadow armor, and elven chain mail as well.

 

Wow ... UAI is even better than I thought.

 

I somehow completely forgot about UAI. That's probably because I keep my thieves in armors thieves can wear so I can use stealth without switching armors around.

I stand firm on my comment regarding the speed factors - I've never had a backstab miss because of the speed factor of my weapon. Most thief weapons are rather quick anyway, and magic weapons get bonus to speed factors anyway. Heck, you're probably near zero now.

Yoshimo's Heart is correct in his comment on the Staff of the Magi. You will be able to equip it with UAI, but you won't be able to backstab with it. (Although I would view the Staff of the Ram as the superior option even if it you could.)

 

You're right, even the Staff of the Ram has a Speed Factor of 1. Perhaps I put too much stock in the Thief Guide, though we'll see what happens when I start backstabbing in the middle of combat.

Staff of the Magi is just for hiding. I plan to use another staff (Ram, Striking, Rhynn) for the actual back"stabbing". It feels wrong to stab with a staff, but I won't argue with results.

 

You're not actually stabbing, you are surpise attacking the foe. TSR made an error calling it a Backstab way back when and Wotc fixed it in 3rd edition, calling it a Sneak Attack.