Thief questions

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No, the original description by Gygax was a backstab and it involved sharp pointy weapons (only dagger or short sword IIRC). It had to be directed at the unprotected back of an unsuspecting target. Assassins had a percent chance to outright kill their opponent for a backstab.

 

While I haven't read a Gygax Player's Manual in a couple of decades, I too seem to recall that was called Backstab in D&D, and AD&D, first and second edition. I have never looked at 3rd edition or later, so it is plausible that it was changed to Sneak Attack. That said, BG2 is based off the 2nd edition rule set, so I would feel Backstab is the proper term.

To save yourself some frustration, make sure you give your PC the Cloak of Non-Detection. I'm sure you've already found some funky stuff with the AI, but enemy mages will auto-cast True Sight whenever a cloaked character comes anywhere near them. They just "know" you're there. So unless you want to twiddle your thumbs for a few minutes while waiting for their True Sight to wear off, it's easier just to throw that cloak on, and have at it.

 

Yes T2, the original 1st edition content is as how you stated. 2nd edition changed the rules of backstab to attack from behind with any weapon usable by a Thief. QS, Club and Mace were a part of that weapon selection. *It did not state that you had to use a Piercing weapon. A thief in 2nd edition can backstab with any of the following. Longsword(Slashing Weapon), Shortsword(Piercing Weapon) or a Mace(Bludgeoning Weapon). Regis from Salvatore's Novels is a good example of a thief with a Mace, thumping people from behind(that sounds a lttle odd, I know...). So with that change, my point is that TSR should of changed the term when creating 2nd edition. Gygax's original intent was probably just a pointy end in the back type of idea, but it evolved.

*I do realize that they released several sets of 2nd edition with some varying rule changes. Possibly the 1st release of 2nd edition could of stated the pointy end requirement, but I have those books packed away and are not available for me to check at the moment. But the BG series was released during the end of the 2nd edition era, which allowed for any Thief weapon to be used during a "backstab".

 

It is most certainly backstabbing. BG2 requires you to strike from the rear, though your enemies have no such limitations. However, BG2 seems to hold a middle ground between AD&D and D&D3 in that you can backstab with a few more weapons.

I am quite aware. Our heroes are obviously very smelly.

It would have been nice if enemies wouldn't react until the first sign of trouble. I understand the AI can't just start to twiddle its thumbs if someone gulps a Potion of Invisibility before their eyes, but the whole Detect() thing is a bit heavy-handed (as is the AI in general, of course.)

 

Read some of the AD&D novels from the 2nd edition era. How they describe the scenes explains it all. There are many instances where a Thief kills using a killing blow from the front. It's the surprise and stelath abilities that allows it, not attacking from behind. Bioware used the attack from behind requirement in order to backstab thing because it was limited in what their game engine could achieve. It's really that simple. It allowed for one less feature, "surprise", to be accounted for.

 

I have yet to read a book based on a game setting that did not take artistic license. I haven't read those particular novels, but I bet I wouldn't have to go more than 20 pages to find blatant disregard of some rule or other.

It's easy for a game to handle surprise the way AD&D does. It would probably piss off a lot of players, though. It boils down to people randomly getting stunned for the first round of combat.

The engine considers "hit by an invisible creature" enough of a surprise. The only limitation is that enemies don't know how to get behind you, so they're exempt from that requirement.

 

BG itself breaks blantant rules and gives NPCs abilities that they wouldn't normally get in the rule system. Nothing new there. But as for the surprise aspect, when the BG series was made, there was no CRPG game that utilized such a feature as surprise.

But back to what we were first discussing, Dragon amgazine, TSR's magazine line that covered their AD&D products, covered the backstab issue many times and asserted what I have stated earlier. It is not meant as only an attack that pokes someone in the spine with a pointy item. It's surprise and stealth that allows for the extra damage. Think about it...have ya ever jumped out of a hiding place and said "boo" to someone? It catches them off-guard regardless if you are in front of them, behind them or to a side of them. The point is they weren't ready for it.

 

I find the whole backstab/sneak attack concept a bit questionable. I don't see what surprise has to do with the damage roll. If you manage to stab someone in the eye, it matters little whether they were ready for it. This subject warrants a thread of its own, though.

 

With the whole dual class Kensai/Thief vs multiclass debate in this thread, has anybody tried dualing at level 19 or 20, right around when your THAC0 is maxed out? Granted, it will be a long time to reactivate your kensai abilities, and you'll probably be well into Throne of Bhaal by then, but I imagine the end result would be quite powerful.

 

You could be a Kensai 24/Thief 28. You'd have the best of both worlds; Fighter THAC0, +53 Fighter hit points, +6 Kensai bonus, and HLAs from both classes. You'd need to kill rather a lot of Fire Giants for that in a party of 6, but the end result would be fearsome indeed.

 

Never tried it, but you could theoretically do it and get both classes active at the end of ToB. Fighter L20 = 3 million XPs. Thief L21 = 2.42 million XPs. So in a full playthrough it is quite likely you'll hit 5.42 million XPs. The problem with that is you'd be playing nearly the entire game as one class or the other. The other problem is that at 5.42 million XPs, you'll still only have one HLA - the fighter one you gained at level 20. You won't get your first thief HLA until you get to 3 million XPs in the thief class. So I don't think this is very practical.

 

I've heard Sarevok makes an awesome backstabbing thief.

You max out your THAC0 at level 21.

 

A little update...

I reached level 13 in the Spellhold maze, dualled immediately, and got to level 8 Thief before I left.

Playing a backstabber is a novel experience. I spend my time scouting, backstabbing, running away (Boots of Speed FTW), hiding behind my party, getting back into position and backstabbing again. Almost nobody sees me, which is awesome, but most critters take a double backstab, which is sort of anticlimactic. Backstabbing is hard work; my script automatically hides me at the earliest opportunity, but the constant running in and out of combat requires a lot of attention.

The Kensai armor restriction still hurts, though not as bad as before dualling. Thieves are pretty useless in a stand-up fight anyway. Bad THAC0, 1 attack. The Kensai missile weapon prohibition is also still a problem; I finally found a magical throwing axe, and now that I dualled I can no longer use even that. The only ranged attacks I have left are regular, unenchanted throwing daggers, which run out real quick. I'll soon be able to buy a magical throwing dagger (Fire Tooth) in Ust Natha, though.

I accidentally used up my Staff of Striking. Rather a limited amount of charges on that thing... Once I get out of the Underdark I could get another one but I think I'll just go get the Staff of the Ram, challenging though that may be. The Staff of the Magi can wait until I get Use Any Item.

 

You cannot backstab with the staff of the magi and further if you are using it for the invisibility I believe you lose it if you switch weapon automatically.

 

Ugh... you're right. I knew I'd been putting this off too long. So, what use is that staff for Thieves? Just a quick retreat?

 

Well, it gives you auto-stealth upon equipping. I personally always give Staff of the Magi to my F/M dual or multi classed characters. Honestly, if you're going to backstab with a quarterstaff, nothing is going to beat the Staff of the Ram - even if you could backstab with Staff of the Magi.

 

To run away, tactical movement, ruining spells (every time a mage casts a spell use the staff to go invisible if he was casting at you he will stop), spell trap, and more little things. It is a very useful tool just not a back stabbing tool (outside of using it to get away so you can stealth and go back to battle).

 

I'm familiar with the staff, just not with Thieves.

Yes, I suppose it'd help if my enemies didn't follow me when I moved out of sight to re-hide.