Throne of Bhaal Replacement TC!

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Mindflayer, that's exactly what I was thinking. I would love to see Calimport as the setting, not only because it is a larger city and busier than any so far seen in the saga, but because I've read Salvatore's books. Imagine the quests available to a thief!? And besides, what better way to bring Entreri into the story?

As for a possible battle setting: Pandemonium. Hellooooo Cyric! And Elminster, literally the greatest of all mortal spellcasters should be a very big part of the storyline. I even had a brief lapse of sanity and thought about Elminster as an NPC, but don't worry, coming back now, slowly but surely.

I must say, this whole project/mod is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long while. I've never felt that there was enough emphasis on the fact that the player character is the child of a friggin' god... It just seems to me that something is very wrong when one of the NPCs is better than the player character. I'm a demi-god, for cryin' out loud. I'm the son of Murder!

So why should Sendai, Balthazar, and (especially) Irenicus have all their crazy special abilities, while I get... Call Upon Holy Might? Cure Light Wounds? Larloch's Minor Drain? Wow, I cure 9 hitpoints, or steal 4. Beat that Jon...

Yes, we get all the weapons and armor, but that's because we need them just to be able to meet them on even terms. I like mages, and a demigod who practices magic should, I think, be able to tap some special powers greater than the ability to only partially heal a goblin.

In any case, I think what I'm trying to get to is that I would love to see divine intervention. Sometimes being the pawn can be damn fun!

 

To tell the truth, the reason for proposing the idea of this mod is the fact that I never really felt Throne of Bhaal was the third part of the trilogy, not until it was the end when I chose to become a deity. The game was not as fulfilling as the previous two, and one major reason was the fact that it didn't allow much movement in Tethyr, as BG2 did with Amn and BG1 with Sword Coast.
What I thought about Calimport is the fact that it's a good place for many classes (especially the rogues), and since the BG trilogy was always moving souther and souther (Sword Coast - Amn - next to Calimshan), perhaps the setting would be better in the third of the Empires of Sand.
The Demogorgon issue is a bit unclear at the moment. If we are to move the setting to Calimshan, then Watcher's Keep will most likely not exist. We'll see once it's a fixed idea of the mod. Noc Nomad and I thought of a basis of the plot, that includes the eradication of the other bhaalspawn, the start of a conflict with Cyric and a way to get him reduced to reasonable (level 40) power.

 

What the hell are you guys talking about Drizzt for? He's a 'local' hero. He doesn't get involved with large scale things such as gods and whatnots, not to mention he's a measly level 16. Elminter's involvement is acceptable, as well as any of Mystra's chosen but Drizzt, although a loved character, is still a minor player in the realms.

Rather than using well known characters, make your own. Shoving a character into a story because that character is 'cool' is a sure sign of a bad/forced plot.

 

Who says Watcher's Keep has to stay in its current position? If the location of the game moves, move the Keep as well!

 

Well the first solution that comes to mind for me is this.

Depending on whether or not this mod will be seperated from the SoA ending and ToB intro or not, you still have the pocket plane to use to your advantage, so if this will be set in Calimport this could take care of the problem of not been able to fit WK on the game map, because hell why not? it can transport you wherever you want, or wherever you need to be whether it's the local supermarket or the moon.

And about NPC's why focus on the well developed ones like Elminster? he might be uber-cool as well as Drizzt and powerful, but how about bringing old BG NPC's like Kivan and Shar-teel back? I use Kivan and Shar-teel as an example because (other then the fact that they are cool and kick arse) they don't seem to have much of a backround or history so it gives a lot of space to put in some original ideas, and besides if you have Elminster as an NPC you may as well sit back and just let him do all the work.

And Mod NPCS like Kelsey, Tashisa and Sime? well that for the creators to decide if they want them to have a part in it I know, but it would be interesting to see what they'd say and do all the same

 

I thought of that option, but the mod authors would have to agree first, and there are other problems too with including mod NPCs. For example, a possible banter between Kelsey (by far the best mod NPC ever, in my opinion) and Tashia, the authors would want to have their NPCs look better than other's. There are of course other problems with NPCs for such a high level mod I had not thought at first: NPCs would have to be level 17+, which in other words translates to well known NPCs. A possible solution to this would be including the NPCs from earlier Baldur's Gate (like Kivan and Shar-Teel, as Casey mentioned), who actually already fit the plot.
The problem with Watcher's Keep could be solved by moving the dungeon to Calimshan.

About the high level Characters like Elminster: I have to say one must be extremely cautious dealing with such characters in the plot, since many fans (of Elminster in this case) would become disatisfied. For example, if Elminster were to be killed by the main Character, most people would be shouting that the main Character is overpowered, Elminster's abilities lower than normal, etc etc. I have to say though that Drizzt is a bit low levelled to be included in an adventure for levels 17-30.

 

I think the safest way to use the characters that are already powerful and well liked such as Elminster would be to give them a non-direct role in the mod, but they could still choose sides and have an impact on the story line while steering clear of anything that some stupid rabid fanboys would go nuts over and complain non-stop about it.

Just some dialog or some advice from Elminster or something like it, with some behind the sceens action going on to affect CHARNAMES future in a way, would be playing it safe I'd think.

 

They'd want their NPCs well characterised, but there's a difference. Only Tashia absolutely has to get the better of other NPCs in every single interaction.

 

Yeah, that was kinda what we had in mind too. Actually having the PC fight with Elminster isn't really a good idea. More of a guiding role would suit him a lot better.

 

Well, if this project really comes to reality -highly doubt it-, I would like to see the new ToB as:

• More side-stories, like in SoA. Heck, it would not even require any new areas, just adding more people to Amkethran and making it a true "city" would do.
  [New Dialogue, modified Creature files, new scripts]
  ---
• More story-like banters with NPC's.
  [New DLG]
  ---
• Battles. The PC is a ûber-level demi-god, owning several super-rare items in a world where even +2 weapons are considered "mighty." Still, every enemy you meet and fight has at least +3 equipment, hits almost every time, and in other ways makes you feel like all those levels had been for naught. => There should be lots of "cannon-fodder" (that can actually run away ) and some unique monsters with enhanced stats.
• For this purpose, there should be some organisation opposing you, just like in SoA. Now, the character just fights against persons, at times meeting their underlings. It should not be so; he is fighting against 'the Army of the Five.'
  [New DLG, new action scripts, modified CRT]
  ---
• About the plot. In general, there should be, from the start, several routes to deal with the Five. Players start from the forest, meeting at the Plane, challenges, Saradush, fleeing from the Saradush just before it's destroyed... Then a choise which nemesis to pursue first.
  
  Sendai's Enclave and Forest of Mir/Marching mountains could stay as they are, even though Sendai's enclave could use a few side-plots (the lich, for example, or the slaves). Something else than "rush in, kill everything, repeat."
  
  Basically the same with Abazigal's Lair. For example: a different meeting at the gates, and Abazigal's son could fight together with the other dragon at the inner gates.
  
  Illasera, however, should be completely remade. She could be made a vampire necromancer who had just "revived" Saradush as an undead city (she is a high-level NPC, remember?), keeping her home in the old throne room. Textures should be changed, though; to something more destroyed and gray.
  [New texture, new scripts, new DLG, modified CRT]
  ---
• The final showdown should be completely remade. Frankly, I find it incredibly boring; she doesn't even follow AD&D rules, being immune almost to everything, throwing double Spell-triggers and cheating in other ways too. Besides, the arena is too small to be the battleground for an epic fight. When two demi-gods meet, there should be practically *armies* of summons, monsters, minions, wizards, demons, and everything between the Abyss and Pandemonium -not cramped to a small arena.
  
  It should be a single-fight too, with attitude "all or nothing" with no afterward coughs and splutters. ("Nooooo! OMG, I have been killed! I will have my revenge! *Cough* *Splutter* *Dead*" )
  [Recycled/New arena, new scripts, new DLG]
  ---
• Tests at the plane could be perhaps a bit more story driven. How exactly fighting "redepmtion" makes the PC more "good?"
  [Re-writing and adding new DLG, maybe changing action scripts]
  ---
• Enemies. Same as already made, but with enhanced abilities and a new name Just read a bit of AD&D Monster manual for suitable ones, with unchanged stats.
  [Modifying old CRT files and saving them as new ones, placing to field]
  ---
• Watchers keep should be included to the plot. Maybe the Army of the Five is intending to release the Demon Prince in case he might aid them, or maybe he has already broken out. Also, destroying one of the Five could require some ancient spell, needed from the Keep. Just an idea here.
  ---
• Ending. Give a chance to take both godhood and lover
  [Re-write ending DLG]

That is, likey they say; my 2 cents Might be interested to contribute another two as dialog/story/journal writer (sorry, not interested to script/compile events)

[ March 06, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Virne ]

 

Wow, that wasn't 2 cents, that was more like a hundred bucks. Good ideas.

 

Virne, it's going to be set in Calimport remember?

Now that I think of it how will the five be involved in it? if Sendai, Balthazar and Abazigal have thier own lairs, then how will they be included in the mod if it is set in Calimport? Maybe they could have a tracker spying on you and, eventually group together and take you all on together as a group, because if it's going to go beyond the usual ToB abilitys than it would make more sense to have a party vs party fight instead of having you slaughter them one at a time.

And I agree that if WK will still be included that it should have more use to the plot for been their.

 

Personally I don't see any reason why the lairs of Abazigal, Sendai and Balthazar can't be moved. They're not part of the official Forgotten Realms world (at least I'm assuming they're not) and so there's no reason why they couldn't be relocated to the land surrounding Calimport.

 

Why set it in Calimport? Wouldn't it make more sense to improve/expand ToB using what's already available?

 

[edit]Bleh, same as what SimDing0 said.[/edit]
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True, but I'm thinking the whole, BIG job here. Even if someone manages to put together a team of dedicated people, it would require a lot of time to program/script/write/draw everything from scratch. I know for a fact, that most fan-made projects tend to last only as long as the makers see it advancing, thus recycling old areas the best they can should be considered as an better option than creating it anew.

It costs millions to gaming companies, no?

 

To tell the truth, I don't think the "5" should be present in TOB at all... For example, why would a LG monk want to ally with a drow and a dragon, and why would they all ally with Illasera, who can't move her feet for move than 5 minutes without dying. And after all, why wouldn't they realise that Melissan wanted something more than just... help them out of the goodness of her heart. Overall, TOB's plot didn't cause much excitement.

 

Maybe the Five could be joinable NPCs. I admit their motivations in TOB didn't make a whole lot of sense but perhaps this could be fixed. Give them an actual reason to work together, or, better still, have them fighting amongst each other and the PC siding with whoever offers him the best deal.

 

I think it would be great if the TC emphasized the stealth aspects of the player party. I mean, a PP is only 4-6 characters or so, not an army. From a RP standpoint, even a high-level party wouldn't take on an entire army on a battlefield, especially a sword coast army which would probably have a number of high-level commanders of its own, as that would be suicide. For example, I could only justify the Yaga Shura battle as a kind of insertion and assassination operation, with the PP sneaking through enemy lines at a time the enemy was fully engaged with the defenders of Saradush, taking out enemies behind the lines only when they had to to reach Yaga Shura, and then taking him out. If an entire army were aware of your presence, and solely focused on eradicating you, I'd like to think you'd be dead (say from a combined massive catapult artillery assault, thousands of coordinated archers, magical attacks, etc)

That being said, it would be fun to have an opportunity or two to show just how powerful the PP has become. Rather than making every mercenary in ToB and his grandmother a 9th level fighter with a full assortment of +3 equipment, it would be fun to wade through hordes of low level, BG1 type enemies. This could even be a fun programming challenge: just how many enemies (fodder) can the IE handle on screen at one time without bogging down?

Just my two cents...

 

Actually, wading through several hundred low level enemies might be interesting. I wonder how many 1st level NPCs a character of 20th level could kill before they got the better of him?

 

Hundreds, and I don't see any fun in a massacre like that. Unless, of course, they would often fail their save vs. fear (like lv.1's always do ) and run away -scripted to disappear when out of sight.

"OMG, he killed Kenny!"
"You bastards!"
"Eh... Kyle... I think we should run for it."
"Good idea fat-ass."
"I'm not fat! I'm BIG BONED!"
"Ha-ha!"
*Berserk*