Throne of Bhaal Replacement TC!

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Well the higest level elite guards and all that are in this setting (or so I'm told) is level 3-4 so if you wanted to make it realistic by lowering the levels that much then against a level 25+ party of 6 it would take something like in the thousands to bring them down, if it's even possible at all for them, great for imporving you're kill count numbers but not much else, remember Shaugin city? they were all level 2 and 3's it was no fun killing them even at that lower level of power and just with a single character as well.

 

More low level characters is a good idea. It might actually make deathblow worth something. On the whole 'not being able to take on an army' thing I think it 'would' be possible. If you've read 'The Lone Drow' by Salvatore [spoilers] the Orc leader is fitted with nigh invulnerable armor, even over his eyes (glass-steel or something). Not even dwarven crafted mithril battle-axes could hurt him. Considering your characters are fitted in armor made of dragon scales and sometimes +6 enchantment I doubt Fighter Bob's plain longsword is going to do much.

Why move to Calimport? Honestly... why? If 'why not' is your only answer then don't bother.

 

I doubt the highest level elite guards were as low as level 3-4. I mean, that's practically starting out adventurer material and hardly elite in any sense of the word. I'd guess levels 9-12 would be more appropriate for elite guards, with maybe the real toughies coming in at level 15 or so. Although saying that it's unlikely someone of level 15 would be acting as a guard in any event. You don't spend years adventuring yourself around the world only to end up serving someone else as a menial guard.

As for how many low level characters it would take to bring down a party of 25th level, I wouldn't have said thousands. Let's face it, even 5th level mages can cast some pretty decent spells - Cloudkill, Haste, Fireball, etc - which are effective against high level players. Half a dozen 5th level mages hitting a 25th level PC with fireballs would be devastating.

Even in hand-to-hand combat, it's likely that a few dozen low level NPCs could beat a 25th level party. After all, my solo thief of level 7 killed Sarevok, Angelo, Tazok and Semaj who were all considerably higher level than he was. A few snares in the right place, some decent spells and a few critical backstabs and even characters of 25th level could be in trouble.

 

David the trouble is getting the computer ai good enough to do that type of thing, it wouldent be easy to program that well and that specific.

 

The problem with this lower-level horde overcoming a 25th level party is how are they supposed to actually hurt them? Half a dozen, 2 dozen, I don't care how many mages are casting fireballs at me, if I put on that ring there, and maybe use this scroll here, and oh yes, there's my armor itself, and fire ain't got nothin' on me.

A level 25 party will at least have a cloak of mirroring, the reflection shield (reflects missile weapons), insane armor, insane weapons, and insane resistances and spells/abilities. I don't see how even a hundred low level mages and fighters could accomplish anything but suicide. Mages are useless against scrolls of protection from magic, albeit there are very few to have. Since we're talking low level enemies, some fireshields, blade barriers, auras of flaming death, spell deflections, stoneskins and mantles, and they'll kill themselves on your defenses. All the while, you're laughing maniacally and tossing out death like a slot machine hitting jackpot.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it all depends on what low level we're talking about here. I personally think that there are too many area of effect spells, and that fighters are too pumped up by level ~25, to be brought down by level sixers.

 

If enemies were as intelligent as the person playing the PC then a group of 6 6th level NPCs could bring down a 25th level PC no problem.

Okay, the 25th level PC has got the ability to cast lots of spell protections on him, right? What’s the best way to deal with a powerful enemy with spell protections? Hit ‘em with pierce shield (cast from a scroll) and dispel magic, or better still just run around till the spell protections wear off. My solo thief killed Irenicus, the most powerful mage in the entire game, by the cheesy tactic of running away every time Jon put up his spell protections, waiting for them to wear off then coming back and hitting him one. It took a long time to bring him down but it worked in the end.

If NPCs were this intelligent, they could cause real problems for the PC. Instead of charging him while his spell protections are up and getting well and truly slaughtered, they should run away and keep on running, only striking when the spell protections are wearing out. Properly handled, low level NPCs could be a read threat for the PC.

 

Well you realise that very few low-level mages would join an army. They generally would come out of their academy at level 7-10 or sometimes even later. The mages would have penetration spells and would be smart enough to use them. However the low level fighters that you would be slaughtering would fail their saves and run screaming in terror after your party of 4-6 has killed about 20 or so without a scratch to show for it. I mean, hell, who wants to be number 21 or 22 that gets dicked?

 

Okay, I want to refute 6th level guys taking on 25th level guys. Here goes.

Are they? No, they're not.

I suppose I should have clarified, the computer has no human mental faculties. That would be a good scripting job, what with humans able to anticipate computer strategies, and not vice versa. I just noticed what casey said above, and it's true, we're talking about a scripted enemy, not a human opponent. A key word here is anticipation. If I see a mage casting a spell that has a red ball of magic while he is casting it, I can be pretty sure that it's an invocation/evocation, and the same goes for a purple ball and conjuration. In any case, I can wait for a mage to start a spell, then equip staff of the magi, and his spell is fizzled. I then cast my own spell. Or any other trick, for that is the beauty that separates us from scripted enemies. We can thwart just about anything they come up with.

So let's take a look at the offensive spells available to a 6th level mage, shall we?

1. Dispel Magic. Wow, that's useless. Against a 25th level caster, there's what, a 1% chance of dispelling? Same with Remove Magic.

2. Spell Thrust. Now we're talking a spell that can actually dispel. But what's this? Only up to level 5 protections will be dispelled? Oh darn, there goes my 25th level mage's minor spell deflection...

3. This leaves us with only one spell, Secret Word. This can dispel one protection up to 8th level. All good, but what about a spell shield? That cancels one casting. And this 25th level mage likely has more protection spells than a 6th level caster has removals.

And I just remembered: Immunity to Abjuration... I rarely used that spell, so somone correct me if I'm wrong, but does that prevent abjuration spells from affecting me? Spells such as Secret Word? Hmm...

Now for the defense of these low level enemies.

1. A level 6 mage recieves only 3 skins from Stoneskin. A 25th level fighter will eat through that like a hot knife through butter.

2. As for fireshields, fighters at 25th level just don't care.

3. Magical-wise, they've simply got nothing to hold off a 25th level mage for long, plus fighters are providing enough of a hassle.

Now for the 25th level party's side. The use of even a select few spells destroys the idea of level 6ers taking on level 25ers.

Anything less than or equal to level 8 is vulnerable to DEATH SPELL. So we'd need at least level 9, which kind of take away some of the purpose of a low level horde.

Abi Dalzim's hurts. Then bring in Dragon's Breath and Comet. Bye bye everybody.

I don't really know how we got on this part of the topic anyway, but to sort of sum things up, in the game that we're talking about here, no group of level sixers under computer scripting is going to defeat a party of level 25 led by a human hand.

[ March 09, 2004, 04:28: Message edited by: Davaeorn ]

 

All perfectly true, Davaeorn, but as I said above:

I said if the NPCs were as intelligent as the PC, *then* they'd be able to take down a PC of 25th level. Of course, no scripted NPCs of level 6 are going to get the better of a 25th level PC.

Turning it around, if you had a party of 6 characters of 6th level and you were facing a 25th level NPC, would you be able to defeat him?

 

As a matter of fact this doesnt mean anything, because no matter how powerful an enemy you're against they are ALWAYS limited by ai scripts, 6 level 6 characters player controled would never get the better of say a sorcerer or F/M player controled character assuming everyone is expirienced and knows what they are doing.

The difficulty of an AI is only limited by how meticulous and how much time is put to the character and scripts, and even then it's almost impossible to make them "smart"

 

I disagree. As I said above, my 7th level thief got the better of Sarevok, Angelo, Tazok and Semjar. Sarevok was 15th level, the others were 10th or higher. Realistically, any one of them should have slaughtered my thief without too much trouble. Yet I was able to kill them all and though it was very, very hard it was also possible.

So it stands to reason that a group of 6 characters of 6th level could get the better of a 25th level NPC. After all, I once played BG2 through without levelling up just to see how far I could get and my 7-8th level party brought down Irenicus himself, all 29 levels of him.

 

Well I hate to say this but if I versed you in a PvP against your solo thief and I had a party of that level I could kick your ass six ways from sunday, let alone an ai controled computer.

 

Er... what? You seem to be proving my point, which was that if you had intelligent NPCs of low level they'd bne able to defeat a far higher level computer-instructed NPC.

Or did you mean something else?!?!??

 

david w, I think what we are trying to say is that computer controlled opponents will never match up to a human. It's not possible for those level 6ers you talk about defeating the PC party post-ToB since a human will always control the PC party.

Besides, I doubt even 12 level 6ers could defeat a level 25 fighter. Why? Deathblow.

 

Yes, exactly what Abomination said.

And yeah, I was thinking more about the mage's side of the battle, but fighters and thieves have their own tricks. Clerics are mostly defensive, but that's quite a good thing to have in a party vs party battle.

 

But.... if those NPCs are smart enough, they will be gating in Pit Fiends and Baalors to deal the crap out of the PC characters, just what I would do if some punk came up to me and asks for a fight, get a demon to answer his call, make it three, just to be on the safe side. And prepare a few more spells to cripple that rogue PC. And Pit-Fiends, never forget Pit-Fiends....

 

Zephur, how could NPC controlled hordes (single digit levels) gate in pit fiends? That spell is far too high for them. Besides, since when has a level 25 party ever had problems with Pit Fiends?

 

An unarmed Aerie at 25th level could handle a Pit Fiend in melee.

 

I still think Saradush-style off-screen catapults are the way to go... I don't care how many pit fiends your high level party could wade through (of course, in true BG2 style, all supplied to you in easy-to-digest groups of 6 or less), I'm sure you had your party running for cover first thing in Saradush... And I still think the apparent power of the BG2 player party comes from the fact that you never have to take on too many opponents at one time...

[Edit: ]
To get back to the original topic, and not just the one aspect of high level battles, here are a few ideas/suggestions:

I wonder if the original ToB events could still take place, though in an abbreviated and modified form, either before or after the TC. It would seem like a waste to not take advantage of all of the characters, voice acting, levels etc in ToB.

One of the modifications could be to tone down the experience. Am I the only one to feel that leveling up happened too quickly in ToB? I never felt like I had a chance to explore all of the HLAs and spells in ToB, because I was always gaining new ones before I even had a chance to play with all the old. I think it would be more fun if the progress were slower in ToB and the TC, so you would have a chance to explore all of these abilities.

I agree with earlier posts that it would be great to have access to the SoA areas in the TC. It seems to me that the TC would be a good opportunity to explore the growing influence of charname on the sword coast, both for good and ill. By the end of SoA, charname is uber powerful and wealthy, and almost certainly (in)famous throughout the realms. One could imagine something like pumped-up post-SoA stronghold quests: a fighter could for example use D'Arnise hold to rise up the ranks of the nobility, and could perhaps even command armies; a thief could expand the control of his or her guild to other cities, etc.

One of the strange things about ToB to me was how anonymous charname was, slumming around pissant desert cities as though still low level.

If the (modified) events of ToB were tacked on at the end of the TC, it would be interesting to build them into something truly apocolyptic, forcing charname and party to leave their positions of power for one last final quest (and what could be more startling than finding out that you have your own special place in hell, as it were.) If the (modified) ToB happened before the TC, you would not only be super powerful in the realms, but would also have certainly drawn the attention of the gods, as earlier posts have suggested. More of a run-in with Cyric seems in order. And one would finally have a chance to use all of those cool Bhaal abilities, for example, you barely had a chance to use in ascension...

[ March 11, 2004, 21:30: Message edited by: Bion ]

 

Just to build on the idea above, it would be cool if each of the five had their own faction with which your PC could side. Of course, one of them would have to be neutral(maybe Illasan?) for neutral characters, but Balthazar could cover good chars and the others would be for each version of evil(lawful, neutral, chaotic). Once you choose a bhaalspawn to side with, their base becomes akin to your stronghold in BGII SoA, with side-quests and other stuff.

And I'd reccomend some other things too, like maybe saving the people of Saradush by putting them in your pocket plane(read that on a board somewhere, I don't take credit for it) if your PC is good. That would definetly make the plot more intresting and believable, and add a good role-play component.

Another cool thing to do would be to choose whether to spare the members of the five when you are about to kill them, you know, add some dialogue, some explanations etc... You can show your mercy.

What ToB needs is a big city like Amn, I kept thinking that as I played it. Saradush kind of sucks and Amethkran is hella boring. I want some temples, stores and sidequests!

That's my two cents.