Turkey and EU

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Turkey (well everybody) should look up to Venezuela and Bolivia for inspiration. Hugo Chávez and Evo Morales really look out their people and stand up to Bush.

 

@Cúchulainn : These two are great men. I've read an article of a so-called socialist in Turkey a few days ago. That idiot says Chávez isn't serious and his attitude harms serious socialists (he means himself and his friends I think). These "serious socialists" are going to start a revolution here. We have more than 5 socialist parties (I don't even know exact number) and they take about %1 of votes. People in South America are certainly more clever than our people who votes for nationalists and Islamic parties.

 

@Faraaz:
ASEAN was founded decades ago and well,if it is not operational until now,i don't think it will be in future...
But a new organisation: Shanghai Cooperation Organization is rising and we will see what happens....

About Hugo Chavez and Morales i don't have much info on their ideas but they seem to be working to make a better world for their countries not USA...

 

Shanghai Cooperation Organization?? Can't say that I've heard too much about it...maybe that will change in the future??

Yeah I know ASEAN was founded decades ago and its not been as effective as was hoped by the founder nations...which is why I was skeptical when I mentioned it earlier.

 

South America is always the pioneer of revolution. I like them

 

For me, the problems with the EU-Turkey relation are not problems of values. Europe is mostly Christian, but not that religious. In terms of Values, official Turkey isn't that different from, oh, Greece, Bulgaria, or Romania. Now, I've heard some stories that some of the people in Anatolia are backward, but I'm not sure it's significant enough to matter.

For me, the political and diplomatic situation is more problematic. The EU has enough voices that say that further enlargement should wait, and they and the politicians looking for cheap-shot popularity (and boy, do we have them) find Turkey a good target. The biggest issue, of course, is with Cyprus. Maybe the EU made the mistake of allowing it in before it settled the problem with the Northern part, but now it's in and it has enough power to influence a decision on Turkey. In practice, the Council (which is generally the most powerful body in the EU) very much avoids dissention, even by one vote. With Greece supporting Cyprus, a thaw between Ankara and Nicosia is pretty much a precondition for accepting Turkey.

 

France, Greece and Cyprus want the negotiations to be cut allready and Germany has been sceptical about Turkish membership for a long time now. In my opinion the last straw for Turkish membership is now lost and the negotiations will be officially cut in the next EU summit if not before.

 

Turkey did most of the things which were wanted by EU...But there's no way that a Turkish citizen, who is loyal to his/her country, would accept the southern cyprus gov. as The Cyprus government...If our prime minister accepts them then he will be a traitor in my opinion...
Btw, did i mention that i never believed that Eu would let us join?

 

Well no actually they did not. The European comission (including the expansion commisar Olli Rehn who has been strongly for Turkish membership and still is) critizied heavily the slowness of the reforms, they are simply not progressing as fast as scheduled. The human rights issues are still there and there are no signs of things getting any better. However I'd agree that the Cyprus issue is the heaviest real issue just after the unpopularity of turkish membership in key countries (Germany and France mainly) and don't think that the slowness of reforms would be enough to cut the negotiations.

Indeed. In my opinion Turkey is shooting itself in the foot with northern Cyprus, it's only recognized by Turkey and that won't be changing. It will only remain as a diplomatical burden for them. Too bad really since the ones who are suffering the most from this are the people in northern Cyprus. When you compare the northern and the southern halves the economical difference is huge.

 

I think it's significant enough to matter. My mom was a teacher and she worked in villages except a few years so I lived in lots of different villages in west, east and middle Anatolia. Some of them are so far away from civilization you'd feel like an alien there. People live as if they're still living in Ottoman Empire in some of the middle Anatolian villages (and even in some cities). Religion is very powerful and there are some sects of Islam which may be dangerous.

 

@Morgoroth:
Turkey willl keep shooting himself in the foot...Northern Cyprus isn't someplace we can just give up on...
In my opinion Turkey did most of things which were wanted by Eu...Because I don't want my country to be in EU and i think some things aside,Turkey is wasting time...
BTW did you know that Eu violated international agreement concerning the cyprus by taking in the southern part? In agreements between Greece and Turkey it was stated that North or southern cyprus government can't join any international organization without the consent of BOTH Turkey and Greece...

 

Could you tell me which is the international agreement that includes this term? Because a term such as this is not included in the "Treaty of quarantee", is not included in the "Treaty of aliance" and finally it's not included in the "Treaty of establishment". In case you have misinterpreted the article I of the "Treaty of quarantee" which states It undertakes not to participate, in whole or in part, in any political or economic union with any State whatsoever, the term State refers to Greece and Turkey and not to international organizations. Afterall Cyprus is already member of Nonaligned Movement (NAM), the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe (CSCE), the United Nations, the Commonwealth Conference and many other international organizations.

 

Indeed. Too bad for the people in northern Cyprus then.

I am not aware of any such agreement but considering that the entire state of northern cyprus is internationally illegal I see no point why any agreements made with Turkey about Cyprus should be followed as long as the illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus continues. Besides the Republic of Cyprus was a member of UN before they joined EU which by all accounts is an international organization and that would irc make such agreements irrelevant on the international level.

 

@BOC: If you are so sure of your info then mine can be wrong or not precise enough...I think i may have recalled it wrong but there was a part in one of the treaties which should have Southern or northern cyprus unable to join EU....At least i had read that...
@Morgoroth:
İllegal for who? The people who had lived there for centuries? There are people there and they want to have a government of their own(because they went through so much terror in 1974) and whether Eu likes it or not Northern Cyprus government is going to be there...And Turkey should support them no matter what..

Cyprus is one of the reasons why Turkey shouldn't try to be in EU...

 

Internationally, for the UN and for that matter everyone else except Turkey. As for the people in Northern Cyprus I am not saying that they should move away but take part of the democratic process of the Republic of Cyprus. AFAIK northern cyprus accepted the plan for a united Cyprus in a referendum when they voted for the Annan Plan unfortunaetly this was scrapped by the Republic of Cyprus in their own referendum. In the end it seems though that both sides of Cyprus want to unite it's only question about conditions which will be dealt with eventually, might take some time though for the old bad blood to disappear.

I am a bit worried though if Turkey will be willing to let go of their vassal (even if they by referendum voted for a united cyprus) for political reasons.

 

@Dengo: between the two of us, the situation in the Rhodopi may be a bit too similar for my liking. Of course, with the nationalists being relatively popular the problem has gotten much bigger.

On Turkey and the EU: to put it plainly, whether we like it or not, for Turkey to enter the EU while not recognizing Southern Cyprus is legally incredible. I mean, how's it going to happen? They will have to work in the same room as S. Cyprus, which essentially means recognizing them de facto and de jure (as a partner in an international treaty). It's just, well, not possible otherwise .

 

@Morgoroth:So Turkey is the bad guy here,right? I just love your point of view...Look tell me why would Turkey want Cyprus seperate if it was all sunshine and roses? In past as you mentioned there was only one Cyprus government;and what happened? People there began to fight a war!!!(Not really a war, i saw many turkish victims who were raped by ...let's say their friendly neighbours..) Turkish people there needed Turkey to interfere...So tell me if Annan's plans for the island were so great why did the southern part reject it? 2 reasons; either they don't trust EU or they want the whole island for themselves...In a situation like this what should Turkey do?Tell the Northern part that they are alone,that Turkey won't support them anymore? Most of the turks in the island voted "yes" because they are young, don't know what happened in 1974;they didn't have to live through it...And biggest reason is, they didn't want to be shown as the ones who were creating trouble anymore...But what happened in the end?They are still in same conditions...

 

@Kara Ay

The treaties, that I'm reffering to, are the founding treaties of the Republic of Cyprus and they are the only treaties that could contain a term like this. After the 1974 invasion it is simply impossible for any Greek or Cypriot government to accept this term because a)It would make Cyprus Turkey's hostage b)As far as Greece, Cyprus and UN are concerned, there is not a Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, even the negotiations are taking place between the Government of the Republic of Cyprus and the turkish-cypriot community. So,you can't agree that something, that you don't accept that exists, will not be a member of international organizations without your consent.

What is happening is that Turkey uses its veto right to organizations like NATO in order to prevent Cyprus from joining them.

Now, as far as the Cyprus' membership in EU is concerned, it is mainly the result of bargain between Greece and Germany, we wanted the Cyprus in, they wanted the baltic states in and so we came to this deal. Furthermore, many of the old members wanted Cyprus in because of the role, it's playing now, meaning to be the main legal justification for denying full turkish membership. EU is using the tactic of the carrot and the whip with Turkey and Cyrpus is playing currently the role of the whip (the carott is the full membership). Even if someday the Cyprus' issue will be resolved, you will never be a member of EU and the main reason for this (apart for any other economic, cultural or religious reasons) is that a Turkish membership will change completely the balance of powers inside EU. The seats of the EU parliament are divided according to the population of the members. Currently Germany has the more seats followed by France. If Turkey joins EU, it's going to get more seats than Germany and France, do you think they want this?

I could answer to this but it is completely off topic so perhaps in a future thread.

 

BOC:
I'm not saying that Eu should let Turkey join...And if i said something like that,sorry then...I'm against the idea involving Eu membership...I think we should stop this comedy show at once...You know that Turkey won't be a member,I know it,Eu leaders know it...But still some idiots are going for the carrot....Certainly if you like it or not EU isn't worth losing Northern Cyprus...But as elections comes near,some idiots are finally coming to themselves...
And with the way things are going and if EU don't back down or pull a few strings,I can happily say this show will be over...

 

The main reason it was rejected AFAIK is that there were major questions about compensations to Greek families that were driven out from the north. I think this will become more or less irrelevant as time passes. There were of course other issues but this would be the most important one I believe.

One would hope that there were more people who just forgot the history and concentrated in the future and what's best for the entire population of the island.