Turkey and EU

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This whole EU/Turkey affair is cheesy, insincere on side of both parties. Time to end the farce, make a clean cut and get on with business. Turkey isnt welcome, everyone's free to pick her/his reasons. Support in Turkey for accession to the EU is taking a steep dive. No gain in souring relations any further. Let's do trade and all, but quickly forget about the rest.

I certainly hope this nonsense meets its due end in December. At the same time I wish I had more faith in Europe's politicians not to drag this corpse around a little longer tho, thanks to some compromise. Yick. Just cant wait for Erdogan (or whoever really) to express heartfelt disappointment/dispiritedness with the EU. It will be a source of great mirth for all the common and distinguished, no doubt about it.

 

@Dendri:
Finally someone who is honest to just tell that they don't want Turkey...Eu doesn't want Turkey ,end of story....There's really no reason to continue(of course there is for some people) this mess...
I'm all for the trade but in fair conditions...And i'm pretty sure i don't want Turkey to join Eu if he could....
I like you Dendri

Well sorry but future isn't bright for N.Cyprus people either way because there will always be some people who want to oppress them..And to think any other way would be pure naivety...
And they have been naive for too long...

 

Why, thanks...

... but I'm being no more honest than the rest. It's not very accurate to state Europe doesnt want Turkey. There are reasons for the rejection; they vary depending on what strata of society you're dealing with. Dont feel like getting into that. -> Regarding Cyprus, Turkey wants to wriggle into an organization but does not recognize a part of it. You understand how it just wont do. The EU has to bring down the hammer on this funny situation. And if it means having Turkey removed from the agenda so much the better.

Btw, taking a step back and breathing in real deep... I really dont think Turkey should give up on the EU if negotiations get canceled now. When the EU has solidified and the Turks are sure they know what they want to do with themselves... we might want to try again. Later. But right now I feel Turkey has to get off of Europe's back soon-ish, cuz frankly your nation is disrupting things here. The EU constitution didnt make it, and the prospect of Turkey joining was a major factor. It's a very interesting coincidence that Turkey gets so ambitious during a sensitive phase.

 

Come on Dendri,as you said eveybody states another reason for not taking Turkey into Eu, so please stop finding reasons and just say a big "NO" to Turkey...Europe is certainly not ready for Turkey and for a few more hundred years i don't think it will be....There are too many issues to solve and i don't think they would be solved sooner than the second coming of Jesus
BTW,Eu let Turkey start the negotiations not the other way around so saying that Turkey took advantage of Eu's delicate situation would be unfair...(But who's fair nowadays?)
And again blaming Turkey for the constution failure is unfair too.Yes,it might have affected it but still there were more fundamental reasons for that...

 

Kara Ay, since you dismiss all rationality of Europe's reasoning (even glaring problems such as Cyprus) so easily I would like to learn what you think are the motives for frustrating Turkey. Seems like you are of the mind that your nations deficient circumstance has nothing to do with it all (personally, I think you are mistaken there, at least for the most part).

Please, share your insights.

 

@Dendri: I'm not saying Eu is responsible for Turkey's problems or Eu should take Turkey in...Since the begininng of negotiations someone or another have always said that Turkey had no place in Eu... And if you remember by taking the southern so called "Cyprus gov." in they turned the problem into a bigger one than it already was...

There's one thing that frustrates me; even at the end of the negotiations Turkey could still be denied(and will be denied because as someone already mentioned if Turkey becomes a member,she's going to have lots of power in the union)...So why bother and frustrate each other?Simply say no.... I don't think Eu has a future with Turkey as a member....What we need is a more detailed and fair trade treaty,that's all...

 

Jap. I dont think Turkey will become a member in the foreseeable future - if ever. Certain nations wont allow it. Even if they dont interfere directly I suspect smaller nations will be backed up to do it for them.

But do you realize you are upset with the wrong people? It isnt like the EU is courting Turkey, trying to coerce her. It's your own nation, forcefully pressing for membership, that is responsible for this. And if I remember correctly your gov got rather loud and, well, unruly about Europe's reticence in the recent past...
Now that things get serious I heard Ankara sent your foreign minister over to our American friends in order to patch up relations. It is hoped that, with the US "supporting" Turkey, she can improve her position in the negotiations and bludgeon her way inside. It will only add to the bad blood.

You are disgracing yourselves, yet somehow manage to blame the Europeans for it. I suggest the Turks take this matter up with their own political class and leave Europe alone already. I dont see why anyone here should be the willing scapegoat for Turkey's misled ambitions. Sorry, Kara, but that's how I see it.

 

Was there a big debate in Turkey in 2004 when Cyprus was admitted to the EU, by the way?

 

Well i'm not directly blaming Eu but they let the negotiations begin and won't end this mess that's why i blame them...But don't worry i blame my government more...Lots of people in Turkey doesn't want Eu membership.... You say that Us tries to interfere and make things easier for Tuırkey...But when they don't like it,Eu leaders can stand up to US...

@The Shaman: Of course there was a big debate when Cyprus was admitted to EU...We should have stopped negotiations right then but our government didn't...So they keep on disgracing us...

 

Yeah, I suppose the government should have just told the people - and the EU - that they either have to break off the talks or acknowledge Cyprus. I mean, once cyprus is in, it boils down to that.

 

I dont know what's happening behind the scenes, mind you. However, the US and Europe are close allies, and it's not at all times an alliance of equals. To deny the US her wishes isnt something you do just like that, I suppose.

Kara Ay, are the Turks aware of US involvement? Your post did not sound like it. I would hope it is so, because... you know... I have the impression that doesnt exactly work in Turkey's favour. Not at all.

 

Well most of my people doesn't know the role of US in our affairs with Eu...And some of the ones who know it,doesn't realise its importance... Nowadays nothing seems to work in Turkey's favour...
I think the reason for our leaders' Eu membership lust is that they are trying to look like they are doing something and Us are pushing them too... I think as someone said before if Us would have minded its own business then a lot of things would be different now....

 

Not only the government of Turkey wanted to enter the EU. Many of the industrialist community (that is the bosses yes), wanted this change. For many reasons. And the most crucial one are the profit possibilities. EU standards request a strong economy, which atm the Turkey has not. Despite the fact of a very good industry.

The approach to EU though was -to put it mildly- blatant. Accept our membership or you will show that you discriminate Islam (or something similar) was the words of Erdogan during the whole process of deciding or not to accept the membership.

Anyway to the present. Greece is not supporting a full and permanent stop of the Turkish membership. In fact Greece is one of the supporters of the membership for a couple of reasons.

And as for Cyprus, first of all Turkey had no say to the decision of accepting or not the membership of the said country.

Secondly during 1974 (which was in fact the period of 1972 to 1974 iirc) all people were through some rough times there. And to say that only the turkish residents of the island were through rough times is at least unrealistic.

That said i find it strange that people think of Cyprus as a Greek state or a Turkish state for that matter.

Thank god our politicians have realized, some time now, that the Cyprus is an independent state and despite the fact that special ties exist, they are on their own wagon and we stand side by side in most matters.

Too bad that the Turkish politicians have not realized that, and still treat the Northern Cyrpus as a part of the state and something that is nothing more than a strategical position.

This is especially reflected at the recent effort of EU to start a discussion board concerning the Cyprus problem. A board that Turkey insisted that they and Greeks should participate. Our foreign affairs Minister said Greece has no place there, simply because Cyprus is the sovereign state and they can decide and talk on their own.

The whole issue has now backfired and Cyprus is having an upper hand they did not all these years. They are in a organization, which is more than a vague and mostly powerless definition (sorry UN) and they are treated as a respected member (UN is too big and a nation means nothing there).

Change is needed for Turkey to either get in EU or be able to move forward in general. Change in the way of thinking for many people in Turkey.
I know that change is frightening sometimes. But in general is part of evolution and at the long run never hurts.

USA has ferociously supported the Turkeys membership at EU for 2 reasons. First another friendly nation in EU could help in the decision making process (if you get my meaning), and secondly they would really like to relieve their economy from supporting the Turkish economy every now and then (more often than they would like that is).

They are minding their own business, do you think they support this membership out of their kind hearts?

 

Ugh, I just did this topic 10 minutes ago in my seminar *sigh*

Hold up, let me dig out my notes and get back to y'all

EDIT: Okay, here goes. The EU does want Turkey. The EU will not reject anyone, because it is not in their interest to do so. What the EU does not want is countries that do not fit their bill. In other words, the EU wishes all member states to be liberal democracies.

Turkey doesn't fit the bill atm, but the EU will continue to wave the carrot of membership to convince Turkey to improve the dodgy human rights record, amongst other things.

The EU cannot reject countries. Turkey will give the EU a more friendly liason with the middle east, as well as a greater landmass, and therefore greater economic and political presence on the international stage, something which it obviously needs.

I am willing to bet that the future will see Turkey as a member of the EU, as the Union moves more towards a federal system, and we see the possible emergence of the USE.

Sorry 'bout the rambling

[ November 23, 2006, 14:51: Message edited by: Daie d'Malkin ]

 

@Mithrantir:
I'm not naive;i know that US support Turkey's membership ideal due to its own agenda...And i'm not naive enough to not know that they want Turkish economy to depend on them...
And Erdogan is someone who is only good at deceiving; when it comes to real things like business,Medical funding he's just another guy who doesn't know what to do....

@Daie d'Malkin:
Sorry but i can't believe in the remote possibility of Eu membership....Turkey would have a lot of power in Eu if she was admitted...So there's no way a country who looks for its own best interests would accept Turkey....

 

Yes, that carrot is quite useful. Turkey has progressed towards being a more democratic country in the last few years. If there wasn't that carrot we wouldn't do these improvements by ourselves. I am not naive enough to believe that Turkey will be a member of EU but the improvements that are being done in our country are good.

Threatening others is something like a tradition here. I fear some of our "l33t" citizens will send something like this to EU leaders: "4cc3pt 0ur m3mb3rsh1p or w3 w1ll hax0r ur c0mput3rs".

 

You know, a survey conducted this year amongst MEPs found that around half of all EU MEPS were in favour of Turkey joining if Turkey met the Copenhagen criteria (Democracy with regard for human rights, a market-based economy and willingness to accept the Acquis Accumulaire- the accumulated actions fo the EU)

 

Actually Copenhagen criteria jokes were very popular here last year. One of my friends came to my home one day and said: "Your bedroom is not clean, your computer is old and you don't have a girlfriend. My friend, you completely fail to meet Copenhagen criteria".

I'm glad I don't hear similar stupid jokes anymore.

 

That's pretty good...

 

@Dengo:No offense but i loved that joke