Turkey and EU

Remove all ads!

Cultural exchanges is not the same as sharing cultural history. The fact that one nation might adapt some cultural aspects doesn't mean that they that they'll think any way alike.

European countries has adapted a lot of different aspects of American culture, but there's still a big difference between being European and American.

I'm sure that accepting Turkey in the European Union will also have it's benefits. FX, the religious issue I mentioned earlier. Christians and Muslims in Turkey had for some time now lived side-by-side with each other. We could clearly learn a lot from the Turks, considering that more and more European countries are slowly turning into multi-national and multi-religious countries. As Morgoroth mentioned Turkey would also be a much welcomed workforce.

I'm afraid you think I'm condemning Turkish membership. That I don't! Despite whatever end, I believe that something should be done quickly. As I myself mentioned earlier, and as Morgoroth said, Turkey might not accept being tossed around, and will only take ever so much.

 

@Cararoth sorry , I don't spell very well (especially when I'm in a hurry)

 

First of all, turks are not European. The only European thing they have about them is stolen Orthodox land which should be returned to Greece, or, at the very least, to an Orthodox major Country such as Russia.
It is funny some people argumented the point of "common History heritage" with the likes of turks on the basis that they almost conquered Viena. How stupid is that? As far as I know, constant Wars and strife does not account for a positive aspect for integration.
Culturally, there is nothing European in turkey or turks, for the matter.
They have zero regard for laws, and constantly violate so called "human rights". They are into the "business" of trading Slavic women as sexual eslaves, for which they shall respond soon, if they dont start to behave like proper human beings.
Economically, they can barely add anything positive to Europe.
As for geopolitics, the EU can have turkey as an "ally" without the need of welcoming them to the Union, as they do now.
Western Europe does not need turks work force either. This is a nonsensical and fallacious common place leftist politicians use to justify bringing over millions of immigrants. Why is the unemployment rate in some Countries in the two digits scale? Other than that, arent there millions of people willing to do these jobs from the newly integrated Eastern European Countries?
As it is now, does not Western Europe have enough turks already?

 

This has to be the most laughable claim I've ever heard in the Alley. Russia has no claim over Turkish terretory nor has Greece. What do you expect will happen if every country (or religion for that matter) will start claiming terretory that has been lost for them for five hundred years or so?

You really should skip the prejudice and read facts. Ataturk made Turkey very European in its culture and quite successfully so. The Turkish political and sociological structure of Turkey is probably more European than in some European countries.

The human rights issue must be dealt with and Turkey has expressed its willingness for reforms and the government has taken a tougher stance towards violation of human rights. Improvement is still needed but the direction is right. Oh and Russia for example is also doing a fine job in trading Slavic woman as prostitutes.

Gee, really? Turkey's economy is in firm growth. Something that can't be said about most countries in Europe. Sure it's poorer than the current members. But it's also important for numerous resons. Not the least because a lot of our oil comes through Turkey and that would be a lot more secure if Turkey was an EU member.

Unemployment is a multi layered problem which you are grossly oversimplifying. Immigrants do not create unemployment, they very often take jobs that we lazy west europeans who are too comfortable with our luxuries would not take. Immigration naturally creates its own problems, but with proper arrangement and agreements it can very well be controlled without having an "overflow" of Turks in Europe. They feared that same thing happening when Estonia joined EU in here, and it did not happen, I believe that those who fear an overflow of turkish immigrants are just paranoid.

No, I personally think we have too many racist nationalists and overzealous christian fanatics who will try to find every excuse there is for keeping Turkey away from EU. Turks on the other hand are more than welcome. I see no reason not to have more of them. They are in general as hardworking and honest as the next European.

 

Not to mention that Russia's view on human rights ain't much to brag about either. We've all heard about mutilated people gotten their ears cut off (I actually remember Puttin telling some french journalist that he new some guys i Moscow who'd be more than willingly to castrate him )

True enough! Sometimes I can't even imagine why immigrants even bother! I mean we've got tons of highly educated immigrants working low jobs in convenient stores here in Denmark.

I can't say that I agree with you on this one! After the implementing of Countries like Estonia in EU, Denmark has been overthrown with cheap eastern European craftsmen who takes the job from Danes. This is because we got so high taxes (40-50%) that you, FX, can hire Estonian workers for much lower prices as long as they don't resident in Denmark. Besides, more and more business' are moving out and into eastern European countries with lower taxes, cheaper work forces, and a much lighter view on environment control.

Not that I fear that a turkish membership will increase these problems by far (if in any way).

*Cough* Israel after second world war...

 

Ah , Mother Russia , always willing to liberate some new territories

 

Didnt Israel regained lost terriotory after a much longer time, on the basis of "holy land"? Constantinople is holy land to Orthodoxy as well. Despite, I have little regard for your comment. It os a matter of time before Constantinople comes back to the Orthodox World, even if take a little while.

No, Ataturk was anything but sucessful doing so. To begin with, islamism is incompatible with European Culture.
Not only that, turks do not look European; do not behave like Europeans; have a different mind set all together, etc.
I would be curious to know which "political and sociological" aspects make turkey European.
Now, where is that quote of mine from a British traveler to turkey? I will have to find that out.

Which direction is that? turkey has been disregarding human rights over and over again. Promises have been flying for a long while, but no results so far.
Anyway, do you really think the EU cares for human rights? Are you stupid or what? If the EU cared for "human rights", they would not accept nazi Baltic states that treat the Russian minority - which is not quite a minority, being up to 30% of the population in Estonia for instance - like if they were not even human beings. Not only that, their goverment keeps praising their SS "National Heroes".

I dont view myself as a particularly violent individual, but if you told that to my face, I would most certainly smash your Finno-ugric half brain.
To begin with, these poor women travel abroad to places like turkey and israel on the promises of honest jobs, only to be enslaved there.

turkey is not a rising economy. Maybe in your delusional mind, but they are far behind any European Country, and their growth pales in comparison with Countries getting back to their feet.

As I said, jobs you "lazy Western Europeans" dont want to take, could as much be done by the people from the newly integrated Countries.
It is funny to note, despite your empty leftist rhetoric, these problems generated due to immigration have been only getting worse. Race riots in England, constant conflicts in France, Italy, violence, difficulty to adapt to local Culture, to name a few.
Paranoid? There are millions of turks in germany already, and they are not even a member yet.

Oh yes, we evil and hateful racists who want to keep our Culture and National order. Even worse the "overzealous Christian fanatics" who are fighting against the destruction of Christendom.
I could as much say, leftist internationalist fanatics like you will find find whichever excuses to welcome turkey now into the EU, and probably another half of the World which have nothing in common with Europe, in a few decades.
--------------------------------------------------

I think you are misreading the news. beheadings, cut offs are practices commonly used by chechens and their muslim kin.
--------------------------------------------------

Only those which are due.

 

And I think that you're blinded by your prejudice.

 

Why is it that people turn to prejudice accusations when they are out of arguments? Because it has an emotional appeal?

[ September 04, 2005, 08:15: Message edited by: Svyatoslav ]

 

Bacause you're arguments runs on religious values rather than political.
Moreover you have a quite racist approach to the entire subject.

 

Get your facts straight. We are discussion the likeness of turkey and Europe. We are discussing Culture. Last time I checked religion was a big part of one's people Culture. Thus, it is only natural to bring religion to the discussion.
There is nothing racist on my post, unless you are bloody sensitive on anything which is not 100% political correct.
All in all, turks are eternal enemies of my people, and not too long ago they were opressing my Balkan Slavic brethren. I have no reason to support them at all.

 

You clearly live in an illusionary world if you believe that such things ain't going on all over the world! Who do you think these enslaved women are being sold to? It's western European countries where fat midleadged men are more than happy to screw whatever comes along their way, as long as it doesn't cost more than a dollar or two. Who do you think runs these so-called "business'"? Everyone from would-be mobsters to happily fet family fathers!

It's rather the Russian government that undermines and tyrannizes their own minority. Despite whatever your delusional brain might conjure up, Russia has tyrannized it's minority for ages! I mean come on! Have you ever seen a picture of a Chechen subdued to Russian interrogation?

The word paranoia comes to mind

Maybe, but that is imo not a foundation on which you can void Turkish membership to EU.

And that says it all! See the hypocrisy? Not racism nor prejudice, yet still you condemn Turkish membership based on preconceived opinions, and wrap it nicely up in your pseudo-religious bs!

I truly am deeply sorry for whatever the Turks might have done to harm you and your kin. Yet the fact that all is said with so strong preconceived opinions as you have, make all discussion meaningless. Some of your statements I would regarded as being 100% correct, however the fact that they're filled with so much hatred makes them seem rather vague; and you like a delusional and paranoid barging dog.

As mentioned above: All further debate seems futile. Feel free to reply however, if you feel a strong urge to get the last word. I probably won't reply back unless a see some drastic changes (Which I'm possitive won't happen).

 

I am quite sure there are millions of Western Europeans having sexual relations with "Russian" prostitutes - by the way, 80/90% of "Russian" prostitutes and the ones from marrying agencies are not Russian, but some National minority, like tartaro-mongols, chuvash, Bashkirs, etc. However, this business of sexual enslavement is something happening in israel and turkey, not Western Europe.

Dude, dont run your ignorant mouth on issues you have no idea about. Typical self righteous Western BS! Now lets for the facts. We have around 160 minority groups, all of them enjoy full rights, and most have their own republics. Most of these groups dont count over 1000 people, so if we wanted to exterminate or assimilate them no one would even notice.
Not only that, if we are so mean to our National minorities, why is it that people like the Ossetians asked to join Russian Federation? The Armenians asked as well, and they have their own free Country - by the way, have you ever heard about the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the "European" turks? No? I didnt think you did.
You know, even after WWII, and what the germans did to us, we still allow their minority - which has been here for centuries - to live here.
As for the chechen bastards, you are really clueless. They have been terrorizing our population for ages! They are always beheading our innocent people, bombing, etc.
By the way, after the first War against the chechens, they did have independence, but they decided to invade our territory! Of course you did not know that, but you probably think you are some sort of specialist in Russian affairs reading your russophobic media.
I could go on and on, but I think my point has been proved quite enough. In the other hand, nazi baltics prohibit even that our people vote, learn our own language, etc.
Now do yourself a favor and be sure to know what you are talking about, if you dont want to look like a fool next time.

The word reality check comes to my mind. Maybe you should get a grasp of what has been going on.

Yes, because Culture is such a small part of one's people.

Preconceived opinions? No, I base my opinion on historical observance of a people that has been throughout centuries acting like savage animals, and not once contributed positively to Europe - coffe, sure
There is no pseudo-religious BS. They are muslims, which makes them non-European at first sight.
Furthermore, I based my opinion of being against their entry in much more aspects than this you point out.
Ultimately though, I am not European, so I could care less, as long as your Brussels burecrauts dont mess with my people, which you seem to love doing so. It is to your own demise after all.

Typical. Sound 100% correct, but yet, as you seem to perceive them as "bigoted", they are not to be considered. Last time I heard, correct statements should be considered, wether they be prejudiced or not - and mine are not.
I dont see how I am being paranoid either.

Feel free to drop the discussion whenever you feel crushed.

 

Who said that we have no claim? According to the axiom that greek territory is every territory that greek soldiers have put their foot on, we claim Southern Italy, Southern France, Egypt, Minor Asia, Iran, Iraq, Albania, F.Y.R.O.M., Israel, Palestine, Southern Serbia, Southern Bulgaria and Syria. Have I forgotten something? Ah, yes, Korea, we sent a battalion there in 1950, so this territory belongs rightfully to us too.

 

Well if people in all countries Russia had war with wold fell the same...
I belive that Russia made a much better job then Turkey at opressing countries

 

If you think so you are free to PM me, and I will gladly, and easily disprove your claim. It will have to be through PM though, as a moderator already asked to stop this discussion.

 

@BOC:
Well, considering you (the Greek people) were at the basis of the Byzantine Empire, you could count northern Bulgaria too (for a while, don't get cocky ) as well as practically all of Asia minor, the Near East, Crimea, part of Italy... Yep, it was an empire, allrigh ... Still, we'd get most of the Aegean, save for Solun / Thesalonica (never quite managed to capture it, too bad), Macedonia, some of Serbia, most of Thrace and, if the khanate counts, most of Romania and Hungary. Hey, we also got around Cool, huh? Actually, from a nationalistic point of view, I'd be happy enough if we just kept our pre-WWI boundaries. Alas for broken nationalist dreams...

@Svyatoslav: Considering Turks never captured Moscow and murdered its boyars, never islamized the Urals and never captured a Russian czar, and especially as Russians never paid the infamous "blood tax" - and were probably the only Orthodox people that lucky - I don't think you can speak of them as historical enemies. Panslavism is well and good, but man, I don't think I've made a man in my hometown with so much hatred for the Turks. If you're looking for a historical enemy, the Tatars would be a more expected choice. Anyway, some of the your opinion on Turkey is simply wrong - most whom I've spoken to are quite secular, and their economy isn't that bad (beats the Bulgarian one, unfortunately). So, bottom line: I'm not exactly rooting for Turkey to go in the EU, but it might be handy - at least they'd have to behave on the way to and in it. Especially as if Turkey is shown the middle finger, all matter of fundies can break loose. That I can do without, trust me. Last thing I want are conservative mullahs pulling the strings in Ankara.
All in all, Turkey has a big minority problem - the Kurds, but I can't quite accept Russia is that blameless either in that regard when it comes to some Muslim minorities. And as for the Chechens, come on, man, them invading Russia? Like, how do you see that happening, unless you count them participating in the civil war as invasion, please post a link (neutral one, if possible), as I'd be interested in that. The one thing I remember from history related to them was that Stalin settled them in their current territories, and they weren't really enthusiastic about it. IMO, today both sides there have too much blood on their hands to speak of moral high ground.

 

I don't know what all the fuss is about, most of em already live in western Europe anyway, might as well join the club.

And besides, does it really matter ? The EU is doomed to fail anyway, in a few years things will be back to normal and we'll happily wage war on eachother again, in good old fashioned European tradition.

 

Would you mind hurrying it up a bit...the History Channel is nothing but repeats!