Turkey and EU

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Personally I believe that Europe needs Turkey as a custodian of prosperity and democracy and an exemplar and anchor for all the countries that surround it; it also needs Turkish labour and the Turkish guarantee of oil and gas from central Asia. Above all, Europe needs to send a positive message to the 12 million or so Muslims who already live within Europe.

 

I fear that history is teached differently in every country. I don't understand what exactly Greece did to Turkey in the WWs. And bitter invasion? Do you mean the 1921 Minor Asia subject? If you do then you are gravely mistaken and what you say is not the truth.

I am sorry if i sound a little bit nationalistic but some things have a limit.
We don't exactly "share" anything. The Turks were a nomad tribe which was islamized by the Arabs. They were powerfull and fierce warriors and for that they managed to gain power in an aging and growing soft Islam (Arabic empire). The final ingridient of the now Turkish culture was an invasion and finally occupation of an old Byzantium. Since at that time Byzantium was still far ahead (as as it concerns culture and technology) from any other empire/kingdom of that era, it is logical to absorb these elements. It was paid with a lot of blood from the Greek population.
I and the majority of our population do not demand anything from Turkey. That means that we don't want Constantinople we don't want Smyrne territory back (Asias minor part) or any territory for that matter back. It is unrealistic to have such demands (and stupid IMHO). But i and all of EU demand from Turkey and more specifically from the Turkish politicians and military (we know they have a say) to conform to the present day.
That means that respect of human rights, different beliefs and religions rights, minorities rights has to be restored.
I don't think that Turkey will join EU because that would mean that Turkey must back off and abandon many claims she has over foreign territories. Turkey must also abandon claims of an non existent Kurdish population, and many other issues which so far are the main principles of their foreign policy.
Attaturk did not "europized" Turkey. He just despised the fact that religion was superseding politics. He believed that to be a flaw. So he just made a new doctrine (neoturks), which was the Islamic beliefs without the religious disguise. And focused only on Turkey population. The gatekeeper is the Army (he did not hold to a high esteem the Greek beliefs of Democracy) meaning he did not even trust the people for defending his nations interests. And in that doctrine also in Turkey should and will live only Turks.

I also think that Turkey chances are slim. But the decision will take place in 15 - 20 years from now, maybe later. I don't want to foretell anything. But as i see from the first couple of days since the negotiations begun, you are about to be the first country to fail that trail.
Why? Because the doctrine of Attaturk is still followed. Because the start of the negotiations was with US interference ( ) and some politicians in Turkey believe that admission will be achieved likewise. Hopefully i am mistaken but the interview mr Erdogan gave to the NTV (or something like that) was still sticked to the same attitude. But i don't expect anything different from the person who threatened the EU that if we don't accept Turkey we will bring trouble and shame to our doorstep. An Islamic fanatic (charismatic diplomat maybe but the party he is leader of is the Islamists) whose wife still follows the Islamic way of life (he is saying so). Who before he got jailed, was strongly against the possibility of Turkey joining the EU. Various speeches of his exist to defend this ( Erdogans poem, Erdogans bio ) but i fail to find something for that in the net, but i have seen it in a greek tv programm and i was amazed by the change he undertook. I don't think that he really changed anything in his points of view though. He is just playing what he thinks is best for the time being. And not to say that he is closelly watched over by the army, which considers him a threat to the Attaturk doctrine. And they would love to see him screw it up (they may even help him).

 

Curious. Why is it that we, the Europeans, must send a message to our resident muslims? Or, for that matter, to the muslim community at wide? A message that Islam and liberal, democratic societies are not opposed concepts?
Rather I feel its the other way around. When I look at the muslim world, and recent occurances, it is up to them to prove that Islam doesnt exclude human rights, tolerance, general happiness and freedom of citizens. The determination to prove that should not stem from the wish to please the Western World, but out of a sense that its in their very own best interest.
And this is what rubs me definitely wrong about the whole Turey-EU scenario. Turkey must be pressed, almost harried, to change its social make-up. Where they should be eager to advance, and appreciative of our assistance, they are putting up resistance, giving us speeches of bravado, warning the EU not to interfere with Turkey's internal affairs unduely. Thats quite rich!
It all reeks of falsehood and a lack of understanding of what is actually asked of them. And Turkey's way into the EU is very long. Everyone appreciating reality can see that when Turkey shows its true face. I found that display of brutality quite revealing.

As for the muslims of Europe - they are hardly being oppressed or harrased. They are free to pursuit their private lifes and religion. Now I would like to see that happening in a muslim nation for once. What right they have to demand of the EU a message of any kind is totally beyond me. Laughable. So please.
Far more if there is so much anxiety among Europeans toward a populous muslim nation joining the EU its because we experience in daily life what its like to have a religious group in our midst that is increasingly turning insular, downright hostile, toward the people that took them in. The muslims, Turks included, make for an extremely poor incentive in matters multiculturalism. Turkey may pay the price for that. On that note: The prospect of having yet more Turks move in - to bolster our labour force or however the legend goes - is not that suitable an argument to convince the Europeans to allow Turkey in.

But in spite of my personal opposition to Turkey's aspirations, and the opening of negotiations with them, I am feeling relaxed about the whole matter. Turkey will never join the EU, that I am sure of. Not only because there is so little enthusiasm left on the side of Europeans (including the politicians). Not only because the whole thing is, in truth, seen as a burden, perceived by most Europeans as a pesky obligation rather than a promising vision for the future. Not because I feel, should Turkey really get close to joining, that they will eventually be sabotaged by certain European nations. Chances are Turkey itself will break away. There are already Turks protesting the idea of the EU dominating and reshaping their nation. If they think that what has been imposed on them so far is hard to bear they have no idea what is coming for them. Turkey will be put upside down by EU demands. In the long run the strain on them will be too great. Whatever delusions they have about Europe - it wont carry them through to the end of the process.

 

What about the 'headscarf ban' in France?

Germans may not like the idea of Turkey being part of the EU, but they seem to love their holidays there, and of course purchase cheap second homes there.

Some Germans that I know complain about the Turkish not integrating themselves into Germany (I have heard of Berlin being referred to the second largest Turkish city), but it is Germany's fault for allowing Turkish to have Turkish speaking schools in Germany (it creates an unnecessary divide).

I don't think Turkey will be part of EU for a long time, but I am confident it will happen in my lifetime.

 

I don't think that this is true, since I know for sure that there are greek speaking schools in Germany, which are financed by the greek state (the same thing is happening here with foreign schools, for example Poland is financing the polish school of Athens for the children of the polish immigrants). If the turkish state refuses to finance turkish schools in germany, you can't blame germans for that.

Edit: Sorry I've misread your post.

 

What about the 'headscarf ban' in France? It's not a "headscarf ban", it's laicism. The only form of religious cohabiton that actually allows religious freedom -> Separation of church and state.

Actually, Turkey is laicist too.

Laicité from Wikipedia:

Laicité is a prevailing conception of the separation of church and state and the absence of religious interference into government affairs (and vice versa). The concept is related to secularism, but does not imply hostility towards religious beliefs.

Edit: And that's were it comes together again. As long as some countries (Italy and Spain for example) insist on the EU being "christian" and definitely not laicist, there can't be a Turkish membership (and other things, that actually are today). If Turkey gets to be member, the EU definiteley would be a laicist organisation, not giving a dam about anyones religion, which would be the desirable outcome.

[ October 07, 2005, 17:04: Message edited by: Iago ]

 

Cúchulainn, the Koran doesnt require women to wear a headscarf. Thus the ban doesnt target this particular religion but a... rural tradition. A tradition that is viewed as oppressive and discriminatory by most Europeans (or perhaps I should only speak for the Germans here?). Particularly since many young women are pressured into wearing this piece of cloth by their families. I personally know such cases. Its also a tradition that is used to visually separate muslim women from the societies they live in. They are not allowed to blend in but are isolated.
You surely understand that it is offensive to a native people to have foreigners actively oppose local habits for the purpose of denying the culture they live in. I think its alarming they would rather set themselves apart than adopt the habits of their new home. The headscarf has become a symbol for this denial/dislike. Hence the attention it is getting.

The French have done a clever thing here. With this ban they took the pressure off the muslim women and allowed them to more easily enter and participate in the French society. Et voila: Integration occurs. Oh, how the traditional muslims must resent that. Enter honor killings!

Also remember that in Turkey women are not allowed to wear a headscarf.

Obviously Germans like to travel. However being curious about foreign cultures such as Turkey's has no relevance for political decisions. Its not a question of antipathy for Turks either. I have been to Turkey. They are mostly a very hospitable people, quite different from the ones living in Germany. And thats were the problems start. The Turks in Germany have proven to be 'problematic' neighbours.

I wouldnt know of schools teaching in Turkish. Are you perhaps refering to those private schools teaching the Koran?
Anyway, Turks keeping their motherlanguage alive in Germany is fine with us. All other foreigners do the same. The lack of interest in German is the problem. It reflects the lack of appreciation of our society and its order.

 

Don't bring in honour killings, boiling catholic blood other christian traditions.

True. What the quran says about scarf is so vague it borders at nothingness. True also that if veil and what veil is heavily disputed among muslims. True, more so among Turks, that happen to be mostly allevits and therfore strongly opposed to veils.

And yes, laicism lets religions flourish and grants freedom to its adherers. But I don't like the Bavarian point of view: Christianity and nothing else. I'd love to see laicism coming to Germany too and that means Protestants and Catholics have to give up their privileges compared to other religions. Something I don't expect to see too soon.

But integration and it's problems, that's another whole chapter, that plays in. And of course an important, but it has nothing to do with religion, as Christians can be as a pain in the ass when it's about integration and learning another language.

The problem is known with all migrants. And where I come from strongly connected with people from Italy, the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Kosovos, Croatians), Albania, Spain, Portugal, Latin-America and Germany.

A high-percentage of Secundos of these people are (mostly) christian AND trouble-makers! Strictly refusing to learn the language, droping out of school, speeding in cars, worrying about honour ... etc.

[ October 07, 2005, 18:23: Message edited by: Iago ]

 

Oh come on, Iago. German/Swiss love-hate or no - Germans dont kill the women of their families when they engage in relationships with the Swiss. Or start wearing A Dirndel.

But you have these things happening with the Turks around here. We had lots of honor killings this year. So I think its OK to mention it. Many young women killed by their families for becoming too... well... European? German? Modern? Whatever. And the best part about it is the reaction of young Turks when asked what they think of it. The response was, and I cant quite get over it, that the fault lay with these dead women for being too German!

Its the ultimate rejection.

What emotions that triggers in Germans. Devastating. And then someone especially bright as Phase Demon comes along and calls those opposing Turkey nationalistic and hateful. A fantastic joke.

 

And that goes for everyone living in EU. Turkey is a country with a very weak currency and obviously is a much cheaper destination for everyone living in the EU. That thing was valid and for Greece when there was no common currency.
But the problem of this union is not only on the one side it's for both sides.
Turkeys social structure included three main classes:
The vaguely rich, the middle-class (mainly emploeyes in companies and generally new century occupations), and the untrained workforce. The third class is the vast majority containing also the farmers. And they are poor, i mean really poor (most of them don't even now what electricity is) and illiteral, without any other future other than serving their aga (lord).
And yes that feudal system still exist in the Turkey totally violating the human rights treaty.
These people will be devastated by the change of the economical system Turkey must undertake to conform with the EU standards. Most of them will either become de facto slaves, working for noting more than some quantity of food per day (now they work for a day pay, small one but it is something).

Everyone can be a pain in the ass if he/she wants to. But the real problem maybe is the total difference in these two cultures is the influence that religion has on everyday life.
In Europe culture and everyday life has since Enlightment broke these bonds, and in facts quite some times has even crossed swords with religion.
Something unthinkable in a muslim country and punishable even by death.
Anyone remembers Shalman Rushdi and the death contract for him? (this is still valid).
And Turkey allthough is more westernized in that, still is far off the western standards. Things can change of course but i don't really think so.
I can say though that i undestand a little bit the immigrant who goes to a foreign country and tries to keep the ethics and way of life of his homeland. But even to this there are some borders.
And i have a personal experience from immigrants especially from countries like Turkey, Pakistan, Africa, Eastern Europe, Germany.
A friend of mine was born in Germany and grew there. He has once told me that in Germany they called him Greek, here they call him German (he feels as if he is stuck somewhere between the borders not able to be in a country). But he is ok.
People i know from Eastern Europe, allthough in their conversations they use their own language (logical) they know Greek and even sometimes use them in their own conversation. The majority has managed to blend in, even though they had a colossal cultural and liberation shock after the fall of the Iron curtain and their coming here.
Africans have just adopted the new way of life. Surely they use their language, surely they have their own diet and surely they hang out mainly with their likes, but this is purely their choice. But they don't try to isolate themselves. They are open minded.
Turks on the other hand, i have seen in Northern Greece. They are supposed to be muslims only. But if you ask most of them they will say they are not just muslims, they are Turks. And they have managed to be isolated in reality from anything non Turkish or muslim for that matter. Their houses are in the same fashion (even now) as they were 200 years ago. A family (in the broad sense of this term) dwells in a isolated ,with no windows to face outside, house, which looks more like a prison or a castle than anything else. Their way of life goes strictly by the Quran and their priest "Mouftis" is their teacher for the youngs. Most women don't get to choose a mate or a husband. They get what the elders decide. And of course the marriage between a christian male and muslim female is unacceptable. The only acceptable mix is Christian (who must convert) female with muslim male.
That is a little too oppressive for my tastes.
But i would like to see this whole process how it would evolve.
I know for sure that Turkey is supposed to accept some painfull decisions. I fear that the army my choose to force the Turkey quitting the process, or far worse to have again another dictatorship. I only hope that the people of Turkey are willing to make that step that will take them forward and just stay still and complain that the others are walking.
After all Turkey and Turks hopefully they know that applying to join EU, means they are willing to conform to EU standards. Not the other way around.

 

Behaviour like that was traditionally ascribed to immigrants from Italy or poor catholic cantons. And there were truly many incidents were women were killed or at least beaten. Actually, I met some Italians that matched the stereotype. That's meet them even today.

But nowadays, it's mostly people from the balkans doing stuff like that. As people from South-Eastern Europe are the majority of the immigrants (next to Germans and Italians). Therefore, you get the honour killing with Croats or Serbs. Or Albanians, who, besides being muslim, have there very own traditions.

But in reality, if one of them claims honour, it's more like: While playing soccer, I was heading towards the goal as he took the ball from me. Therefore, he violated my honour and me and my 2 bullies mates had to kick the **** out of him.

Same goes with drunken alcoholics, sitting around useless, unemployed and lazy, getting angry when their sisters haven't cleaned their clothes yet or made some food. That's when start rambling about hounour and how the sister wasn't raised well and such a disgrace.

And that's the same behaviour pattern for immigrants. Maybe Turks, maybe Bosnians, maybe Italians, maybe Croats, maybe Spanish... all the same.

That's one of the sources of the problem. That's why they are called secundos. There somethings else, something new, a mix. And some of them can use it and take advantage of it and use as a special opportunity granted to them. Some survive it and learn to handle it and some fail. Fail completely.

And those who fail end up being nothing. Because they can't speak no language, not the language of their supposed "homecountry" nor the language of the hostcountry. And they can't read no language. THey can't write. They can't understand. They are "worthless".

And that's a pattern that hits about 25% of the foreign population.

They are foreign in a foreign society and when there in there "homecountry" they even more foreign. Nothing. And those people are a serious problem for society.

And maybe they know some complex words and can make some short phrases, like:" I am orthodox". And then:"Orthodox, you **** and I am Orthodox".
Actually, I am very impressed by people that all of a sudden can enunciate words like that. Besides having no concept of whatever the word may mean. Because their language capicites are so reduced, even if they would try to understand, they still would fail. They only no, that being "orthodox" is something "good" and "exclusive" and being not "orthodox" is a flaw. Besides, never having been to church for about 10 years and never ever opened up the bible to read, it's an important thing that has to be mentioned when ever the oppurtinity calls for it. Like why there was a quarrel with some other guy.

A lot foreigners around here simply are that way. I actually no a Greek guy who shows patterns like this, but he isn't as aggressive as Ex-Yugoslavians tend to be.

And on the other hand, a lot of Turks got their daughters into higher education. I even think that the Turkish integration successes are higher around here then Italian or Balkan ones. But this may very well be the product of different circumstances. For example, a higher percentage of Turks coming from East-Turkey or are generally coming from higher educated social-stratas, or allevits being in the majority...

In any case, Integration isn't that simple black and white.

Edit: By the way, the foreign population in my canton in the 10-30 years of age segment is nearly 50% or the whole population. And were I was raised, the percentage was even higher.

[ October 08, 2005, 11:13: Message edited by: Iago ]

 

I can tell you from experience that's not true.

 

Allthough what Western Paladin is saying is true, there is a catch there too.
When one meets a person from a foreign country, he/she may not or do like him, but furthermore gains a first hand experience on these ethics and customs that make the difference. Having then a better judgement and knowledge of that civilization than before.
That may change your mind for that particular nation to better or worse but based on more solid facts than the ones you had before.

 

Only have an opinion of a country when you live there for a while. At least then, you will know what you are talking about.

 

Cuchulain i don't disagree but the fact that you or anyone here has not the possibility to live in i.e. Afganistan, does not mean that you can't have an opinion on the health system there and the health conditions on most residents there. It is easy to find a report that can pretty well fill you in on some facts. That would easily help you have an opinion on a part of the reality one faces there.
Not a full aspect of the story, but still something

 

It was not directed at you Mithrantir, but I meant more of an opinion on culture and way of life and such things, but yes I agree with you on that one can have an opinion on healthcare, pensions, etc.

Too many people get their view of culture from TV programmes, which I find disturbing.

Off topic, but back to the late 80's, local schools had a school trip to Florida (some type of US/N.Ireland programme), where we stay with trusted famalies. The family that I stayed with had some ****ed up ideas on Ireland, for example I was purchased my 'first' bicycle, which was some rusty piece of crap from a market, while I had a nice mountain bike at home! I was also asked questions like - "Does your father drink beer all day?", "Do you have cars in Ireland", "Can you read and write?" etc. Similar questions were asked when I went on the Walsh Visa programme many years later!

So getting back on topic, you can see how people have strange views of other countries, as they never visited themselves. Turkey's biggest problem is not with themselves, but how people view them, and have strange prejustices of their culture. Maybe some people think the Turkish ride on camels all day waving shamshir's!