U.S. Releases Near-Naked Saddam Photos

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At least they didn't sell a "full monty" of Hussein.

- Actually, I have more to say, but it probably goes off topic... So I'll start a new one!

 

Aldeth -- *sigh* -- I see your point as well -- but don't you think these individuals at Gitmo are still in the "military", "soldier", 'war" mindset?? As opposed to any of us?? They may NOT be getting shot at on a daily basis, but they still are lightyears from where we are, MENTALLY.

 

I agree with Spell on this one. Institutions have long memories; these memories persist in the passing on of particular "ways of thinking" into their new recruits (and this includes not only the military, but also the civilian gov't, academia, corporate culture, etc). These memories have evolved according to the history of that institution, so that the military mindset is tempered by the need for people to be effective in the inhuman conditions of war. What these people have to do at Gitmo is tough; by holding people captive you are by definition dehumanizing them to some extent. Restraining people's freedom *is* a kind of violence, and doing violence to others does emotional damage to oneself. The same could be said for civilian prison guards, whatever the culture.

I spent a year a while ago volunteering part time at a hospice for terminal AIDS patients, which was my closest brush to being an "insider" to the health care industry. At first I was totally stunned by the dark graveyard humor of the nurses, and those of you that don't know really don't want to know the kinds of terrible things nurses can say about their patients in private, even (or perhaps especially) the very tragic ones. But pretty soon I joined right in; in some ways, it was also necessary in dealing intimately with people who were dying in terrible ways (and this was before the really good treatements were available). A couple times I saw the mask drop, as when a long time patient who the staff had grown to care for passed away, and you'd see how affected people were by these things. But it would be impossible to do all the drudgery of hospice care and be affected by every little tragedy.

So soldiers and prison wardens become callous to certain things. This isn't an excuse for Lnyddie England type behavior, for taking humiliating pictures of people and sending them around, etc. But there is a limit to how professional one can be, and to ask a soldier to never *privately* engage in the kinds of humor soldiers have always since the beginning of time engaged in is a bit much. And I doubt very much the military asked civilian policy makers to set up Gitmo, a strange, extra-legal prison defined by the need to interrogate prisoners for information, for them and make them run it.

Again, this isn't at all to justify Abu Graib or Gitmo...

 

Bion -- Very well said. And I know full well about the culture of different types of groups -- I dispatched for 911 Police and Fire for 3 years and was appalled at the dark humor when I first signed on -- thought these people were the most callous and inhuman people I'd ever seen -- until I walked back into the squad room one day, after one of these particular joking sessions after a gruesome murder/suicide of 2 young people -- only to see these very same officers crying, trying to deal with what they saw. They had been called out to that house for numerous domestics, so they knew those people.

And, yes, this doesn't excuse the behavior of taking those pictures -- I still think it was wrong -- but maybe we should stop and think a little bit as to what their world is like.

 

Perhaps they are. Having never visited Gitmo, I cannot really say what mental state the soldiers there have. However, I was speaking from my personal experience, as my current occupation is that of a civilian contractor for the Department of Defense. It involves working closely with soldiers at a large army base - Aberdeen Proving Grounds if you're interested in the name. All of the people in the military base - as one would expect - are in the U.S. Army. Most of the people who work for my company, while currently civilians, are retired military.

The point of all of this is I do not see much evidence of this "military", "soldier", "war" mindset that you speak of. Most of them are pretty regular guys. That's why I was pointing out a big difference in the possible mindset of people serving as turnkeys at Gitmo, and dodging bullets in Iraq.

This is not to say that I don't notice a particular mindset at the bases and among retired military personel - just not the type that you describe. There certainly is a sense of brotherhood within current and former military personel. It is a sense that "all are one" for lack of a better phrase. Nearly all of them can be described as patriotic, loyal to each other, and willing to stand up for each other under almost any circumstances. Thus, while you may see these people attempt to defend the pictures of Saddam, I don't see anyone of them requesting transfers to Iraq. While you may still consider that a "military", "soldier", "war" mindset (and it certainly is in some respects) I think it is a different use of those words than you intended. I will agree that being in the line of fire certainly changes people's views of things, but most military personel adjust quite well back to their previous behavior once taken out of harms way.

One last point I think needs to be made concerning the "military", "soldier", "war" mindset - and it is from an expression that is rather common in the military: "No one hates a war more than a soldier."

EDIT: Spellbound, you posted while I was writing, so I have a little more to add. I will admit that those serving at Gitmo are most likely under more stress than those serving locally. However, I think if we were to compare the soldier at Gitmo, I think there stress levels are far more similar to those at Aberdeen than those in Iraq.

And I assert that I can provide some of that insight. This is not from one or two people I know in the military. These are from dozens, if not hundreds of people I have met over the years. They are as low as new recruits to as high as colonels (Aberdeen is not headed by a general) to people who in some cases have spent 20 or 30 years in the military prior to retiring. I have met them all, whether through meetings, training classes, operations, etc. I would say that I have met people whose home towns would represent nearly every state in the Union (although I've yet to meet a Hawaiian native), and while all will admit that you act and do things in combat situations that you would never even consider doing otherwise, serving oversees at a military prison and serving in combat operations are, in fact, lightyears apart.

[ May 27, 2005, 19:21: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

Aldeth -- Well your experience in dealing with military personnel as a civilian contractor pretty much correlates with those contractors I have known in the past. However, I maintain that whether soldiers in Iraq or prison officials in Gitmo -- they are still lightyears from US here and I would wager than from many of your military contacts -- as your words state. I wonder how many of your work contacts at this base have seen recent action in Iraq?..... or just came back from serving in a prison camp overseas? Again, it's a little different scenario -- with a different mindset. There are literally TONS of inactive military here -- retired et. al. -- I wouldn't EXPECT them to have the same predisposition to those recently coming out of a war, or in a war, or overseas dealing with war criminals. You're comparing apples and oranges....and yes, I think being a prison guard in a place like Gitmo is a touch different than being on a base stateside.....and certainly different from my civilian mindset here.

 

So if Saddam was a POW, then yes, the pictures constitute a violation of international law. As such, the person responsible must be punished, be it Guard or Paperazzi. The publication of such is also a vioaltion, therefore the SUN must be held accountable. To save face, Bush must cour marshal a guard and then invade England?

As for the issue of Genocide, nobody wants to actually stick their nose into it, so these dictators get away with their murders. The world needs a loose cannon like King George (now Chandos has me calling him that) to send his troops in and make an example out of these dictators. Sure the people that weren't getting murdered en masse might not like it, but international law is satisfied...