UN investigation reveals...

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You overlook that there are also civilians who would be ideological enough to do what you expect a soldier to do. Think of settlers. And besides, about everyone in Israel is a reservist.

 

He'd have to be pretty dumb though too, wouldn't he? Even if the woman was not visible, it looks like whoever was holding that camera would have been.

 

No doubt - there are civilians who would be ideological enough to do it. The counterpoint I would offer is that this guy isn't Israeli - he's a Russian immigrant (he certainly could be Jewish, but he's not an Israeli).

I'm just saying that having worked on a military base for the past 10 years, the mindset and willingness of a soldier to follow an order to kill someone is much higher than that of someone who isn't a soldier. I mean, we're talking about killing someone. Would you ever kill someone because you were ordered to do so by an authority figure? Even if you really didn't like the person who you were going to kill? IMO, the driver would have to be a borderline sociopath to even consider doing it. So I still see the explanation of "I didn't know she was there" as the more plausible.

I am a very inobservant person, so I could totally believe he never noticed the camera crew.

 

I would never say that the bulldozer operator was justified in running that person over (assuming it was done deliberately). What I am saying is that the person who stood there and died was foolish and had the ability to save her life and protest another day. She bears some responsibility for her own death.

 

Im going to requote this, what changed? the Isralies have always been so careful not to harm the protesters, why suddenly is an officer ordering the death? in such a visible undeniable way? that would be totally stupid, accidents happen, the driver was probably waiting for the instruction to stop from the spotters who normally work along side him, the spotters this time were cowering in the APC's, no order to stop, as far as the driver, who has a very limited field of view is concerned, there is nothing infront of his massive bulldozer except for the massive pile of debris which is building up infront of his plow.

Aldeth already made this point for me:

sorry LKD, according to Rags, people dont have to take responsibility for their own actions.... Im waiting for the fire service to get sued when a member of fathers 4 justice falls from a tower.

What I love about this whole argument is that, this must be murder because its Israel, similar things happen everyday in 'civilised' countries but we never hear about it, it never gets addressed why? because theyre accidents but since the the media have turned Israel into their classic bad guy, you people lap it up. Im going to see if I can find Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine secretly leading Israel from behind closed doors.

 

That's not true in the US, not at all. Here, the media is pretty much pro-Israel. In fact, when Israel is critized by the mainstream media it instantly attracts a good deal of attention and scrutiny. Don't mistake, I'm a supporter of Israel. And, IMO, there is so much that needs reform in the Arab, Muslim countries n the ME that I would not even know where to begin, but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything Israel does.

 

Really? She bears responsibility for the fact that someone considered her life worth less than the hassle of calling the cops, or thinking of a way to get her out of there - to say nothing of delaying his all-important assignment? Sorry, I've heard a lot of nasty "... was asking for it" justifications for anything from beating to murder, and I don't consider this one any more valid. I don't really think so. In fact, I rather doubt she even realized, fully realized, that she would be killed.

Remember, most protesters, at least in "modern" countries, do not believe they would be killed, especially if they do not commit hostile actions. I'd say it would be a reasonable assumption on her side that the bulldozer would stop rather than kill her. In most cases, at least in free countries, that is what happens - because of the underlying assumption that a human life is worth more than a call to the cops, or whatever would get her removed. Besides, it wasn't a violent protest - she was just there, not doing anything that could constitute a case for self-defense, the only excusable reason to take someone's life in most modern countries. Normally, it would be a safe assumption that the worst that could happen to her was to be arrested or get a black eye if the bulldozer operator had a mean disposition. Only in her case, it was the wrong assumption.

I can't help but think of Tiananmeng when I think of this case. It was a huge incident and it was shocking that such a thing could be done - even though supposedly the military is much less tolerant on such issues. It was an international tragedy still vivid in public imagination today. Yet somehow, an incident like this is just not considered very important. With all due respect to all parties involved, this illustrates a double standard at play.

 

That's a good point, since there was no end to the outrage over that instance in the US.

 

I fully believe that it is a tragedy in the sense that a human being died horribly. If the driver did it deliberately, then it's not so much a tragedy* as a frigging crime. Once she saw the vehicle wasn't going to stop, she should have taken the self-preservation road and dove out of the way. Nothing I said regarding the truck incident is meant to exonerate Israel if it is true that they deliberately killed her.

No double standard on my part -- I hate them!

Chandos' quote here:

sums up my feelings in a way. However, when people do criticize Israel, I am always curious why they do not expend more energy criticizing the much worse actions of Israel's neighbours. Ragusa has explained to me his position, and while I respect it, I don't buy it.

*tragedies, IMHO, can be avoided and are not a result of the enaction of moral agency. Crimes are a result of someone, as a moral agent, making a deliberate choice to do something harmful.

 

People should take basic self preservation steps, such as "dont kneel infront of a huge bulldozer".

My old man always taught me when I was learning to drive "dont mess with an artic" (artic being 18 wheel, 45 tonne articulated lorry) "Its less likely to stop then you are"

 

She did it as a symbol of protest, not because it was basic self-presevation. It proves just how strong the impulse towards liberty is, "even" in Muslims.

 

That guy here is a Russian immigrant in Israel. He's the foreign minister.

To wit: Iirc only Jews are allowed to emigrate to Israel, and Russian immigrants in Israel are without exception Jews, or at least have been able to credibly claim Jewish ancestors. Russian immigrants thus are usually Israeli citizens.

 

so, your saying all jews are cold blooded murders?

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only now seeing Shaman's post:

huh? what cops? this is a war zone, there were units nearby, inside armoured vehicles as there was fear of possible attack from palestinian snipers.

thats an excuse? noone ever thinks it will happen to them.

are you familiar with sabotage?
In the 15th century workers in textile mills, fearing for their jobs threw their wooden shoes, called 'sabots' into the textile looms to break the wooden cogs, many workers were killed as a result of the damage to the machines, their actions were not hostile, but naive and ignorant, it resulted in deaths which they did not forsee.

and? thats with the big assumption that the driver could see her. youre familiar with a pedestrian crossing? many are killed every year crossing at a pedestrian crossing, when the light is red and the 'green man' shows, they assume that the cars will all stop for them, but sometimes someone doesnt.

once again? what? the only people who knew she was infront of the dozer were her protester friends... maybe one of them should have said "oh... hang on, that thing's getting close...... " and moved her, they are just as responsible as they stood by and watched as she was crushed by a large pile of debris.

who has said anything about this being self defense? Im sure the driver was pretty safe inside his heavily armoured, but vision restricting cab.

you saw the picture of the dozer? this isnt a situation where the driver is going to get out and punch her, does anyone else here think that the driver was (assuming he saw her) going to get out of his armoured cab (with the risk of sniper fire), climb down the side of his 15ft vehicle, and then walk over to give her a dig?