Unfinished Party

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Dude, a Druid of any kind can NEVER be the equal of a pure Sorcerer or Cleric. He is at best a substitute for them, though he does have his own unique set of useful spells.
As to Barbarian/Druid... Rage? Just buff him in animal form with Champion's Strength, period. Oh, and did you know that default animal forms of Druids suck donkey's ass? Just thought I'd inform you...
The ONLY reason to go for a Druid is for the unique spells they have (notably: Barkskin, Call Lightning, Static Charge, Whirlwind, Tremor). A Sorcerer can outblast him, a Cleric can outbuff him, and any run of the mill melee warrior can outdamage him.

 

It wasn't so much an omission, I just don't see how this combination is so powerful: with one rage per day you can do a little more damage for 5 rounds a day. BTW, I don't think Champion's Strength carries over to the shapeshift form, AjaX. His strength is already augmented (i.e. yellow) by the shapeshift, so can't be buffed further.

And yes, I was referring to Raise Dead and Resurrection when I said clerics had better healing.

IMHO, druids are a useful addition to a party of 5 or 6, because they have the option to contribute in spellblasting, or to shapeshift and melee, depending on the situation. In a party of 4 there are much more important roles to be filled. BUT, the half-dragon shapeshifts outmatch any warrior you can make otherwise.

 

I've completed the game with a single druid before, both with the half dragon shapeshift and without. They aren't to bad.

I don't think that the barbarian rage is all that great, you're better going for a fighter or paladin instead. Saying that, Paladins are quite limited with the spell casting

 

Druid shapeshifts can be fully buffed. When shapeshifting you loose some buffs on the character, but if you cast stat buffs at the shapeshifted form they do stack IIRC.

Arctic boar form is powerful btw, you get a full extra attack per round and do quite some damage.

For druidic offensive power: Charge your character with as many "static charge" and "call lightning" spells as possible and for a long time you can watch enemies getting struck for high damage every few seconds while your druid can still fight or cast spells. You can increase the damage even more by taking GSF transmutation and "scion of storms" feat.

The druid's biggest defensive benefit is the "barkskin" spell, a level 12 druid can grant +5 AC to all party members for quite a long time which helps a lot, just consider how many players recommend crippling clerics and druids with a monk level just to get an AC bonus for this character only.

 

I hear a good thing to do is cast invisibility on your druid afterwards. They call it the invisible bug zapper apparently.

 

Yeah, that's coz the Monk level can give up to +11 AC easily, assuming you only increase WIS, but dont drink Potions of Holy Transference and are not a Dreadmaster. If you do both, you get +14 to AC total due to Monk level (-1 coz of reduced DEX). Oh, and it stacks with Barkskin. Even assuming you DON"T increase WIS at all, you still start out with 18-20 WIS, raised to 23-25 with EGR, taken to 25-27 with Potions. That's still +7-+8 bonus, along with evasion, and better saving throws overall.
Crippled, you say? I don't think so.

 

The abilty to play punching bag while not wearing armor is improved (but you hit worse and get extra attacks later) but the druid/cleric abilities are crippled (half the time you cannot cast spells you're supposed to be able to at this character level, all the time you can't memorize as many spells as you're supposed to be able to and all the time level depending spell effects aren't as good as they are supposed to be)

 

A single level in Monk is not exactly a dent. More like a scratch.
Did you know that Monks are THE easiest class to get high ACs with? Train a Monk properly, and even the in the climax he'll emerge unharmed. Not what I call a punching bag. More like a silk curtain, that you can't hit, but it can still strangle you. Hits are not bad and get FAR better later, especially if used in conjunction with Stunning Fist, considering how many you have of them. And it lasts for a whole round of attacks, what's more. The sheer joy of taking down a Slayer Knight with Quivering Palm is unbelievable.
However, in terms of multiclassing, a single level of Monk will suffice, with minimum sacrifice. I weigh the gain far heavier than the loss of probably 1d8 damage, or 1 up in DC, or a level 1-3 spell lost.

 

A Bard wouldn't be as useful in this party as a Druid or a Sorcerer with an unconventional spell selection. Druid works best because the combination of an offensive/defensive spell list will be more useful to this party in the long run. Sorcerer with an unusual selection because basically if he takes too much nuking spells he'll fry the party, while too much summoning/buffing/debuffing spells and he'll be a redundant character.

It may be the "jack-ass-of-all-trades", but a party of Bards can give several other powergaming parties a run for their money. Just how many classes do you know have defense/buff spells like Mirror Image; summoning spells like Shades and spells like Wail of the Banshee while having instant buffing abilities (songs) and decent fighting skills AND use magic device all at once? As for HoF you can consider the nuking route "superior" to the summoning route, but bottom line is that both tactics work just fine nevertheless. What's "superior" is only so by preference. A decoy is just as unlikely to exist as a summoned monster with extremely high HP.
The only reason Bards seem inferior is because they aren't being powergamed enough. Try an evil party of two Bards, a cleric of Oghma/x and a Rogue/Diviner (core members) sometime.

kmonster is thinking in terms of party efficiency. In this case a pure Druid is better than multiclassed one bar none. What's the point in giving the Druid additional battle capability if he's never gonna melee at all in the first place? You can start making a list of situations that would force him to, but the point is that the "party" was designed to deal with them, not JUST the character.

 

Aye that's true. If the Druid isn't meant to fight, no need for a Monk level. I was actually commenting on kmonster's remark that the single level in Monk cripples a cleric/druid.
You seem to be quite a Bard supporter. Can you mail/msg me a detailed description of the kind of party you described, and some comments as to how you played through the game? I've always thought Bards only selectively useful, so I'd like to see a fresh take on them.

 

I didn't realize that: So my elemental half-dragon form with its 40STR can be buffed to 48STR, so it can wield its elemental 2-handed sword (1.5xSTR bonus, extra damage all 4 elements) to devastating effect. No one can beat the half-dragon in melee!

The single level monk only puts the druid's progression 1 level behind, that's not exactly what I'd call 'crippling'. And the combination with the shapeshifted form allows my half-dragon to have a much higher AC (most other forms of AC boost don't carry over), and Evasion! How isn't this a good thing?

 

So it's been quite a while, and I'm a little ashamed of myself for letting it slip yet again . I got distracted as tends to happen when a bunch of new games start coming out . I'm trying to pick this back up now, but I still have a few unanswered questions. I'm going to try and lay this out in such a way that you wont have to go back and reread the entire thread, or even the OP, to advise me. Keep in mind that I wont be playing through HoW, and that the omission of a Battlecleric or Sorcerer is due to my indifference towards them.


Half-Orc Fighter 4/Barbarian X (Primary Tank)
Are the DR bonuses this character gets later on still relevant and helpful given the DR provided by armor/shields? (Ease-of-Use mod)


Aasimar Fighter 4/Paladin X (Tank, Mage Killer)
Is Luck of Heroes redundant given the saving throw bonuses from the 20 CHA and Aasimar resistances?


Tiefling Rogue 1/Conjurer X (Versatile Spellcaster, Thief)


Human Morninglord (Primary Healer, Bombardier)


Human Druid (Primary Bombardier, Tank, Healer)

I decided to install both the additional Druid spells (ADS), and the alternate shapeshifting.

I know that Druids typically go straight for GSF: Transmutation, and Scion of Storms, but seeing as I have installed the ADS, which includes a lot of evocation spells, should I still go for transmute and scion first before evocation and spirit of flame?

I am contemplating going Ranger 1/Druid X with this character, because I would like to use longbows and longswords (although once I attain the shapeshifting forms I doubt I will need the swords so much lol), and the only other option for that would be to make him an Elf, but then I would miss out on the extra human feat that I could use for a spellcasting feat (as well as the extra skill points). Because this character is going to act as the primary damage dealer with the ADS, I'm not sure it is a good idea to handicap him by taking a mix-in or by missing out on spellcasting feats (If I do take a mix-in with this character, that would make the Morninglord my only pure spellcaster).


Moon Elf Fighter 4/Transmuter X (Sniper, Bombardier)

Given the changes to the Ranger from the Light of Selune mod (1d8 hit points per level, improved Reflex Save progression, 3 skill points per level, +1 missile AB and +1 missile damage every 3rd level) would 4 levels of Ranger be preferable to Fighter? (Would lose Weapon Spec and Fighter's extra feat)

How can I plan out the Fighter levels such that I will still gain access to the important spells (like Fireball), early enough for them to be useful? Like I suppose in the case of Fireball I could start by taking 1 level of Fighter, followed by 3 levels of Wizard.

Does the DR provided by armor/shields (Ease-of-Use) negate this character's effectiveness?

I haven't decided if I am going to take this character; I am considering just taking the previous five. My concern is that with all of the ADS-added evocation Druid spells, coupled with the Morninglord, I'm not sure that it makes sense to add yet another evocation-based character. I want the Druid to feel distinct; to be inimitable, and valuable to the party. I also want the same for the offensive capabilities of the Morninglord (and just how much use will he have as an offensive spellcaster with a Conjurer, Transmuter, and Druid (+ADS) in the party)

Do any of the cleric/lathander, or additional druid spells make up for Fireball, Magic Missle, or some of the other wiz/sorc only evocation spells (Otiluk's Resiliant Sphere..)? Put another way; are there enough exclusive wiz/sorc evocation spells (or useful overlap) to warrant having this character in the party?

 

Nice to see you back on the boards again, Jatsu.

Yes, my barbX/ftr4 had roughly 18DR, 11 from armour, and 7 from innate ability. But that was in HoF. Suffice to say every single point of DR is valuable, so your barbarian will always last longer with this.
In light of not going through HoF, your level will stay low, so the DR will be low, but always significant.

This character is already well protected with saving throws. Whatever priority you choose to give saving-throw-feats, give them lower priority for high-CHA paladins.

A wise course of action - druids are underpowered in vanilla IWD2.

GSF: Transmutation is very important for your level 1 Entangle, which will help carry your party through the difficult early fights. As for the elemental feats: They become equally valuable, but they're not crucial in the start: {Lvl1=Entangle, Lvl2=Barkskin, Lvl3=Spike Growth, Lvl4=Stoneskin(mod)} At higher levels, there are good damage spells in fire and lightning.

Spoiler

Personally, I try to get the +1STR from the Transmuter mission first, by taking a mix-in and 10 Alchemy before using Imphraili's lab. This means that elemental feats are put on the back burner for a while, but when I get around to them, I take them both. For you it wouldn't be an option, since you're not going into HoF.

DON'T install the Class Upgrades component of the Light of Selune mod, it will screw up the reflex save of any character that takes ranger as a mix-in. Just uninstall the component, and the ranger mix-ins will restore to their proper reflexes. You can temporarily install this component when your druid casts level 8 spells, to gain the wonderful Tremor spell at level 8, but uninstall it as soon as you stored a druid that has picked Tremors at lvl8
The raqnger mix-in with a druid isn't too bad, but should be delayed, and is actually most worthwhile in HoF, not normal mode. A monk mix-in however, allows a WIS bonus to AC (even while shapeshifted), and the use of Axes, but I think you didn't like that idea. Most of your characters can use bows, only the druid and cleric would miss out, but there are some crossbows in game, that give multiple shot per round, and allow for Rapid Shot bonus.

Spoiler

Hagnen's Folly (Andorra village) and the Hell Bolter (duergar encampment)

Longswords aren't that special early on, and there are plenty of good maces to use instead. Don't forget that druids can use Polearms.

The 1st fighter level will give almost all that a ranger level could (no dual-wielding, but you get the useless Heavy Armour proficiency). The other 3 are to acquire weapon specialization, I assume? This is a mistake. This is a spellcaster, so don't try to make a fighter out of him. Even for bows, to significantly increase their low damage, it won't be as good as 3 more Transmuter levels.

You have a Conjurer in the team already, which would mean that you're mainly missing Executioner's Eyes. This character with 4lvls fighter, won't even be able to cast lvl9 spells at the end of the normal mode game, I'd wager. I suggest you ditch this one, and make your tiefling a rogue1/transmuterX. Even better, make your 6th a sorcerer or bard. You can't find enough scrolls to supply 2 wizards anyway.

 

Saving throw boosting feats are not very useful in IWD2 since you don't have to make many saves in the game and you only get a little bonus for them.
With all the available options to boost the saves or even get immunity you'll only fail a save when you roll a natural 1 later in the game, then even +999 to saves won't help.

For your druid it's not worth taking ranger levels. One feat more or less isn't that important, so taking elf won't hurt. You'll only need 10 int for getting 2 skill points/level. Powergamers would play human with 3 int and use slings/darts (bows don't get a strength bonus) and polearms.

If you take the fighter/transmuter I recommend starting with a transmuter level since all important skills are cross-class skills for fighters. Don't take the 2nd fighter level before mage level 6. Ranger levels aren't better than fighter levels.
I'd take a bard instead and add transmuter levels to the rogue.

 

Neither do slings - they're launchers, and as a rule, they don't get STR bonus to damage.

Dual wielding is comparable to the Rapid Shot feat, but for melee. It gives an extra attack at the attack bonus of the first attack, but costs -2 overall attack bonus. Naturally, melee is not the first choice in most battles, but you don't always have a choice, and it's great to have in a pinch. And there's a +1 attack vs. favoured enemy.
Now, the first 2 fighter levels get a free feat each, but taking these early to get spellcasting feats quickly would be of neutral benefit, maybe even detrimental, because it sets you back in your casting class. So a mix-in of a warrior class must be assumed to be for adding versatility in combat: weapon proficiencies and such. So is the fighter's free feat better than ranger dual-wielding?
If you consider the best combat feat, Improved Critical, and compare it to dual-wielding: Imp. Crit. gives an extra 5% chance per hit to do double or triple damage. A second attack at nearly the same attack bonus as the first attack, will give a much larger chance to deal another blow of damage, especially with high Strength. And Imp. Crit. can still be taken, but this dual-wielding ability would take 2 feats to achieve otherwise.
When you are attacked in melee, it is unwise to keep holding a bow in the hand, because enemies get +4 attack bonus. If you are holding a melee weapon, it's a waste to not take a swing at your attacker in between casting spells. Melee ability is never completely useless.

 

Dualwielding is crap on the long run, once you start getting extra attacks per round two-handed weapons become far superior.

Do you have any mods installed ? AFAIK only bows and crossbows don't grant a strength bonus.

 

I can't imagine any mod that would disable the STR-bonus to damage from slings. Why would anyone want to do that? Do you know of one?
To answer your question: I have every mod installed that i can think of, with the exception of 'Alternative Cleric Domains', 'Alternative Races' and the IWD2 NPC mod.
But why don't you check your own Weapon Statistics, and see if you're getting a STR-bonus?

 

In my experience Slings give a STR bonus to damage.

That being said one shouldn't give a Ranger bonus to a Druid (a waste of a level since you can use Beast Claws if you want to dual wield so much and in the long run like kmonster pointed out it becomes rather useless). The only good option is to give a Monk level (for Evasion, bonus to saves and AC) or keep the druid pure. I won't mention the uber cheesiness of "rebalancing" mods.

If you don't use modded XP for kills you shouldn't mutliclass too much (if at all -except for the Rogue level of course). Taking 4 Fighter levels doesn't bring much to the table (getting Damage Reduction with a Barbarian is better than getting a few extra feats).

 

For the most part I'd agree with this, I'm actually experimenting with my own characters nowadays, keeping them pure, and most don't take the ranger level early anymore:
- I have a rogue2/illusionistX, which I find gets more mileage out of an Armoured Arcana feat and an enchanted shield with only 5% spell failure (Sad Giant's Cap has 5% failure and a -0 to abilities, which is important, since a rogue2/illusionistX has no shield proficiency). Wizards get extra feats, so she can afford it. She's mainly a caster/ranged attacker, but the shield upgrades her AC, and make her Mirror Images last longer Later, dual-wielding daggers will probably give a beneficial effect to this character, so it's still possible as a late/HoF mix-in.
- I have a sorcererX/paladin1, and it seemed initially wise to go the same route, but I have a mod which changes things for me: A good ranger gets the chance to buy a Light-of-Selune-mod bow in the Wandering Village from a quest, which is +3 attack, +6 dmg, +your STR-bonus to dmg!!! I killed the maker afterwards, and he dropped the 14000gp i gave him. Naturally, it became important for her to buy it, because she has 16STR, buffable up to 20. A ranger level will allow her to dual-wield powerful weapons, as they become available. Right now, I have her using the Moonblade of Selune and Sulo's Hook in the off-hand for a deflection bonus.
- My druidX/monk1 took a mix-in of monk early on, and has been wielding the best axes and polearms available to her ever since.

Spoiler

As a druid12/monk1, i plan my next mix-in to be a transmuter level (taking 10 Alchemy all at once, because it's a cross-class skill for druids) to make a +1STR +5HP potion in Imphraili's lab. After that comes a Dreadmaster mix-in for the +2WIS quest.

I do expect I'll take a ranger level later on, when powerful weapons are availiable, that I'd want to dual-wield. But this will be not long before I take 2 fighter mix-ins for 2 extra feats, and that will be my final mix-in.
- Last in line is my bard, who is still pure at the moment. Bards aren't supposed to be attacking, and this one benefits from wearing a shield to upgrade her AC. For this reason, I'd go for Armoured Arcana feat again. It's unlikely that the bard will ever want to take a ranger level; even if she chose to dual-wield, she should never be attacking anyway (it'll stop the bard song).

The point I want to make, is that a ranger level should be postponed until you find it greatly beneficial. You know exactly what the mix-in brings your character: weapon proficiencies and dual-wielding in light or no armour (a druid without a monk level should wear medium armour. Actually a fighter or cleric level is better for a druid, to allow for heavy armour). You also know exactly what the cost to your build is, namely 1 caster level behind. So keep it in mind, and take it only when you're absolutely sure it's the best thing for your build.

 

All of the other characters in my party have a strong RP reason for being there. The characters themselves and my concepts for them are my primary reasons for wanting to play IWD2 right now; I want to play a game with these characters that I've had in my head for so long. The Fighter 4/Wizard X on the other hand, was chosen simply because I saw him on Mike Malone's FAQ as an example character, and thought it sounded cool.

My thinking, as I pointed out earlier in this thread (which I guess might as well be an entirely different thread at this point, beyond being useful for reference and context), was that as the Conjurer's barred school is Evocation, there will be plenty of Evocation scrolls for this archer to scribe.

The Rogue 1/Conjurer X has to have Evocation as a barred school in concept, because he is not meant to be an offensive spellcaster (aside from perhaps some summoning and Necromancy spells). In fact, it would probably help if we just make him an Enchanter and label him as such. His purpose is to tactically augment the group through counterspells, manipulation, alteration, and protection. Think about it. He is already a Tiefling (to which Bluff is a racial-skill) and a Rogue. I thought this would fit perfectly, and I love it from an RP standpoint. I don't care if it is not powergaming efficient. If it is playable, beyond theory and in actual execution, and not completely crazy, it will be fun for me =).

I am using the Tweaked Experience Tables - Boosted 10%.


As far as the Druid goes, I really appreciate all of the info you guys have provided here. I simply feel better about a pure Druid anyhow, so that will work fine for me. I'm still not sure about Human Vs. Elf though. I know I'm going to use DaleKeeper to make him LOOK like an Elf, I'm just not sure if I want him to actually BE one .