Vice-President Picks

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This was too funny not to post. I'm positive it wasn't endorsed by McCain/Palin. You have to watch to the end

 

Anyone remembers the endless mockery his $ 400 haircut got John Edwards on the right? If that was fun, this will be even funnier: Palin went on a $ 150.000 shopping spree to get an adequately vice presidential wardrobe, mostly at the RNC's expense. Republican donors are somewhat unhappy about it, and would apparently have wished for a more frugal approach. The sum is probably a wee bit more than Joe the Plumber makes in a year.

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Another bit I stumbled upon was this comment about Levi Johnston and his absolutely suicidal choice of dropping out of high school. One would expect to see responsible parents and in-laws intervening. After all, a high school graduate typically earns 50% more than a drop out, so this will have a significant impact on his ability to provide for his family. Nothing of that. And unless her mother wins the vice presidency, it's a good bet that Bristol Palin won't be going back to high school either, but will choose (or be made to?) to live with Levi in accordance with traditional Christian family values. Where Levi's earnings won't suffice, he can hunt and fish to bring food on the table, if the Lord so wishes.

One might point out that, indeed, tens of millions of Bristol's and Levi's generation in Asia and Europe are staying in school for their advanced degrees in engineering and sciences in part because someone taught them which is the business end of a condom. But probably all of that doesn't matter because we will see the end of days in Palin's lifetime. And then degrees count nothing - all that counts is whether you have embraced Him as your saviour, and whether you'll be left behind or go to heaven.

 

You are forgetting that some people are just stupid. If he wasn't college material why go? If he can make a decent living for himself as let's say a "plumber" and doesn't need college, then I say "good for him"

I'm not saying it was a great decision, but without knowing the kid there isn't anyway to judge. I know the Mrs. and I would kill Little Snook if he made that type of decision.

You need to work on your tolerance and understanding a little bit. A little compassion wouldn't hurt either.

 

Snook,
first I don't think I lack compassion for Levi. I am sure appalled by his choice, albeit on an abstract level. Except for that I am more or less indifferent towards him. What interests me is what he tells us about Palin and the religious right. And he can tell us something I think.

I don't think Levi is daft but that he's an average kid. There are a lot of average kids in college. He was a hockey star at his high school. That doesn't make him smart, but odds are that he probably could have gotten a sports scholarship for a college in exchange for him playing on their ice hockey team. The US educational system provides such options. So it isn't as if his choice was inevitable.

You and the Mrs. would kill Little Snook if he made that type of decision? So would I if I had kids. That Levi made his decision anyway, suggests to me at least an environment that allowed for that decision. Levi's attitude 'Eh, whatever...' towards him attending Palin's rallies doesn't suggest he himself is 'a maverick'. So I think he made a conformist decision. Which is about where my interest in Levi ends.

What he apparently conformed with then is the salient point. Levi's choice has direct impact on the fate of his fiancé. If Sarah Palin or her hubby, let alone Levi's own parents, didn't intervene in such matters in the family they apparently approve of it. As there is no rational reason supporting Levi's decision, the answer must lie somewhere else. Granted, stupidity would offer an explanation, but near unanimous stupidity in two families? Sarah Palin is religiously hard core. To look at religion in search for answers is an obvious choice, considering Sarah Palin's known religious views.

Sarah Palin is a lady on a mission, so how far fetched is it to conclude that what she lives is apparently what she prescribes for America, too? That is what the above comment was all about.

 

It's not that Levi is just deciding to not go to college. Lots of people don't go to college, but many of them go to some type of trade school, to you know, learn a trade. The problem here is that Levi isn't even going to finish high school - even though this would be his senior year. Acceptance at a trade school is not automatic, and they do preferentially accept people with a high school diploma over people who do not have a diploma. (Is there any word on whether Levi is at least getting some type of equivalence degree like a GED?)

Ragusa's snarky comments about Levi hunting and fishing aside, he does make a valid point. Levi is going to be a father, and is going to have to help provide for his family. The way modern society works, you tend to accomplish this through working. In order to be hired somewhere that pays much beyond minimum wage, you need to learn a skill. Currently for Levi - who is now just a couple of months away from becoming a father - he has no skills, and is not even working towards attaining one of the most basic skill sets someone can get in receiving a high school diploma.

I further agree that it is appalling that neither Levi's nor Bristol's parents have a problem with this, apparently. The fact that one of the parents happens to be running for vice president is practically an ancillary point. It shows remakably poor judgement and parenting skills, IMO, regardless of what respective careers of the four parents involved currently have.

 

Actually, what surprised me about Levi isn't that he doesn't want to attend college, but doesn't want to finish high school. I don't know how the education system in Alaska works, but I think most places have vocational training schools that provide specific training for technical jobs such as carpentry. In my home town (for comparison, it has approximately 2/3rds the population of Anchorage) alone there are high schools (now called "professional gymnasia") for people who want to be cooks, tailors, electricians, builders, metalworkers, brewers, carpenters, agriculturalists (basically farmers, I guess) and a few others. The majority of the people who graduate from them do not go to college - in fact, many of those schools are considered to have rather low standards academically. There were several people from my primary school class who weren't that bright and had some trouble getting by, and they went on to enroll at such schools. Graduates of such vocational schools get formalized and wider training in their chosen field. and even if they finish with the equivalent of a C, they will be expected to be much better qualified than those who train on their own or do a 2-month training course. In turn, this means that they are more likely to be offered a job* or to be considered for a more qualified (and better paid) position. Actually, most companies here require high school education for all but the most menial jobs*.


So I don't know how it works in Alaska, but I think he's making a very wrong choice and someone should push him a bit harder to at least finish high school. He's already nearly there, after all. Not finishing high school is bad enough in itself, but if this guy is going to provide for a family (and I doubt his girlfriend is more likely to be the breadwinner of the couple) he definitely needs that extra edge.

*: Personally, I think it's more as an insurance - no matter how lazy you were and how pathetic your primary and high schools were, chances are that in 12 years you would have soaked something so you're not completely ignorant. Oh, and maybe displayed any serious mental problems that any prospective employer would like to know about. The likelyhood of being able to learn the basics of your trade in 5 years is also significant.

 

I wouldn't really dwell on poor judgement. It isn't about that. Palin is ignorant, but she isn't stupid. Rather, it is about the Christian Right's brand of moral clarity. It's where you set your priorities: In the here and now, or the time after the rapture? What use is a high school diploma when you're unsaved?

Besides, those liberal learning institutions will only instil in your offspring silly, ungodly, perhaps socialist ideas. Like using a condom. Properly.

 

I don't think we are in a position to make this judgement about their home environment or the relative parenting skills of the parents involved. Perhaps it would make some people happier if they took this kid out and publicly flogged him for his poor decisions on national TV, but that would hardly be good parenting either. I know lots of highly educated parents whose kids make poor decisions regarding education, and I don't think we have the right to label them as bad parents without knowing a hell of a lot more on the topic. I would venture that both the Palins and this kids parents are both sick over the matter, but once a kid has made such a decision, sometimes the only thing a parent can do is just let the whole situation play out.

As for the religious right advocating avoiding education, perhaps that is true of some truly fringe elements, but most conservatives I know are quite well educated. Usually, Rags, you rely on facts, and I respect that, but I don't think the facts support this level of viciousness toward Palin and her beliefs.

 

Perhaps if Palin was not so "vicious" in her own remarks, she would find herself less on the receiving end....

 

There is a big difference between Palin being vicious to Obama (she is supposed to, everyone knows a VP pick is the attack dog) and Rag's being vicious to her son-in-law. Yes, they are religous, we get it. We get it that people who aren't religous don't really understand the ultra-devout, but it doesn't mean they are doing something wrong, they are just doing it differently then you would.

 

What about the parenting skills of the mother and father to be?

Nonsense - I don't advocate beating sense into someone, no matter who well-deserved it may be. Frankly, I couldn't care less if thie red-neck drops out of school or not - I'm just saying he's setting up his child for a rough start in life. That's the other thing about not having a good job - it means he also likely won't have health insurance - something you definitely need when you have a kid.

I guess I'm going to be a bad parent - something I think it's not best to just let things play out, and I would say such a decision is an excellent example of that.

 

Palin is not just being "vicious" to Obama, she's playiing the good ol' boy, redneck card: The educated against the uneducated, smalltown folk against the urban "elite," The "real" America against the "phony" America. She is working to divide the country for her own personal gain. That's politics, and the other side plays it as well: The class warfrare card - The rich against the lower classes; corporate America against the working poor. It's vicous politics and both sides play it. But I'm surprised to hear the masters of the wedge issues complaing about "vicious" politics.

 

So what are they supposed to do? Wave a magic wand and he'll toe the line? I've seen a lot of dropouts, my friend, and their parents scream, cry, threaten, comfort, coerce, bribe, inveigle, beg, plead and call interventions. If a kid of this age has made up his mind, there's nothing can be done to change them, levy what sanctions the parents may. And these were good parents, who had successfully raised other kids. So my point is that unless further data comes to light, we have no right to say that this is Palin's fault for not somehow forcing the kid to finish high school. Besides, if she did swing some authority as the Governor, you guys would be on her for misusing that authority.

As for Levi himself, no question he's an idiot and he's not doing his kid any favours. But that's his fault, not necessarily his parents'.

 

While I readily concede being sarcastic about Palin, I cannot find myself saying anything negative about Levi other than that he made a conformist decision - which then would be about it. Those who take offence at my asserted viciousness may please point out to me anything on Levi, anything vicious in particular, that I overlooked or forgot that I wrote it.

In that sense LKD, it was you who called him an idiot, not me. I wrote he was an average kid making a conformist if suicidal choice, which is in my understanding a milder verdict.

The conclusions I drew out of what I wrote about Levi and applied on Sarah Palin are a different matter entirely. While they were certainly highly critical I don't think they were vicious. I like things to make sense. Considering religious motives does help make sense out of things involving religiously motivated persons. And when the religious reading makes more sense than other readings then it is probably correct. At least it suggests a contributing factor.

And as for unfairly blaming the parents or in-laws, now perhaps Levi perhaps is himself a maverick and does things that his family can't talk him out of. I have yet to see things that support that argument; as for now the opposite is more likely. And if anyone here can draw out of the tale of Sarah Palin's son-in-law to-be dropping out of high school a deep appreciation of education - alas - you see things that I don't. I would then strongly appreciate your take on the matter.

PS: There's another angle on the education aspect: Palin has held her 'abstinence only' views for a long time. She has just been confronted with evidence that there might be flaws in that concept. Did she reconsider after her daughter got knocked up? No. The sole problem to Palin appears to lie in that her children have sinned. It's not that there are any flaws in the concept of 'abstinence only'. Indeed, based on her experience Palin could have made the compassionate and compelling point that educational needs must be modernized to be ready for a host of 21st century situations, whether technological or personal, so that everyone can keep learning - but that would have hardly been in tune with her religious views. As I said, I think she has other priorities. I guess if you expect the rapture in your lifetime you don't want to make God mad at you.

 

Oh, I firmly believe that this kid is an idiot, and I believe that level of viciousness is justified, but what I take issue with is comments like this:

The insinuation being that Palin and the other parents are NOT responsible parents. You then go on to make the argument that she is an irresponsible parent because she is --- how did you put it? Oh, yeah:

I've been around Gnarff too much with all the quotes, but what the hey!

I'll even put in another:

That doesn't wash in my books by a long shot. We have no bloody idea what they have done to intervene, so you cannot conclude from the evidence we see that they approve. I think it highly likely that they do not approve, but they're not going to air their family's dirty laundry for all and sundry to see. Of course they are going to come out and say supportive things -- if they fail to do so, they'll be attacked for being "elitist" and for abandoning and publicly humiliating their daughter who dared to violate their "overly strict" belief system. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

And I don't think Levi is an "average" kid -- I would guess that the US has a more than 50% high school completion rate, which would put Levi in the minority at the least. His kind of kid is a common one, no question, but not average. He's an arrogant, rich little punk (based on what little I have seen about him) but he doesn't represent all America.

To use an illlustration, my father was a good father. He worked hard to supply a good life for his kids. He would have done anything in his power for them to finish high school and go on to university, despite the fact that he had not had that opportunity himself. Well, my two oldest brothers graduated high school but chose not to go to Uni. Dad was heartbroken but what was he supposed to do? Physically drag them to class? Yeah, that'll work.

Then my third brother came along. He always hated school. My parents tried everything. But at 14 he simply said "I'm not going back to that hellhole." He started packing his bags to run away. My parents were at a loss. Rather than see his son take off and possibly get hurt, he told my brother that if the boy got a job he could still stay at home. They managed to hold onto him until he was about 17 or so and a little better prepared to face the world. But that in no way means that Dad was happy about or OK with the decision. And it sure as **** doesn't mean he was a bad parent. It just means that even the best parents sometimes have kids who make bad decisions, and sometimes there's nothing that can be done but tell the little buggers you love them and will do your best to help them regardless of their stubborness.

I hope you all see my point -- much as we would all like to think that kids are like machines, and that if we program them all properly they will turn out fine, they all have minds of their own and cannot be controlled with 100% effectiveness.

 

LKD,
with 'average kid' I referred not to social background or wealth but intellect.

 

I don't know LKD, while I am willing to concede that we don't know everything about the situation, I cannot completely think that the parents are blameless here. When you say that Levi is "an idiot" and "an arrogant, rich little punk", doesn't that suggest something about his upbringing? Further, I believe a lot of what you learn about being a parent comes from how you were raised as a child. So Levi dropping out of high school is also telling in that regard.

Finally, I'm not prepared to completely agree on the part of the Palins and Johnstons successfully raising other children. I have no idea how many, if any, siblings Levi has. As for Palin's kids, the oldest in the military, and the other ones are too young to pass judgement on. I'd say she's 1 out of 2 for now, with 3 TBDs (or at least 2 - little Trig will need help his entire life) to go.

 

It suggests but does not prove -- not by a long shot. To use the example of my brother again, he went against everything that he was ever taught, both by word and example.

I'll concede the possibility that Palin is a bad parent, but we don't know that for sure.

Oh, and Rags, his intellect may be average, but his choices are not -- I was not referring to his socio-economic background either.

 

Oh yes you did

 

Ahh, ya got me! OK, scratch the "rich" part of it and it still reflects how I feel about the little <darling> and doesn't talk about the amount of $ he has.