What can you say about the President of the United States?

Well, I chose it because I was really really bored in the army and I wanted a intellectually stimulating job. I am not really mathematically inclined which crosses out many career paths for me. Not very interested in law. Of the things I were interested in it was only politics, history and literature that could possibly lead to a career and then only in teaching as I was not really interested in studying for the rest of my life and I am fairly sure I lack the talent to become a writer. Basically I felt I needed to get a degree, didn't really know what kind of degree so why not teaching. I am not really the most ambitious type, I have little interest in money (strange huh seeing since I complain a lot about the wage but there is a difference between not being motivated by money to being paid so little you feel completely unappreciated). I am not interested in the cut-throat corporate world. Then after my first practical experiences I was hooked, teaching when it works is really really awesome. It has the potential to be completely wonderful for all involved.

I have not worked for very long and am willing to give it a few more shots but am trying to change school. If it continues like this I will take pretty much any other job, heck most unqualified jobs with a lot less pressure pays similar or perhaps even more. My mate who just took random courses in college and took a crap job at a bank now earn more than me. True he is a pretty good guy and been promoted a few steps but I also know him and if he could do it so can I. There is no promotion as a teacher no matter how good you are and then of course we are back to the point of how to decide whether you are a good teacher.

 

We've been having this exact same debate here in New Zealand. Every staff room I've been into these past few months have been a buzz with this exact topic. As a teacher, I have to say I agree with what BTA says here - Good teachers need to be rewarded, and bad teaches need to be kicked. The only problem is coming up with a system to judge, and standardized testing is not the way.

 

Where we differ is when you say that it is like any other job and that it ought to be easy to evaluate performance BTA. I would love some good kind of performance evaluation because I am fairly certain that I am pretty good teacher but many of the things that make me good are extremely hard to measure which in my opinion is true for most good teachers.

Standardized testing would if anything reward bad teachers. My horrible colleague loves easily measurable tests and work sheets. All her pupils do day in and day out in English is different grammar exercises with attached keys and all the students are expected to do the exact things whether they are complete beginners or near fluent in the language. Extremely easy for her to evaluate how her students are doing there. Whether they actually learn what they need to know is irrelevant as long as they can fill in the correct form of the verb "be" in a work sheet. For her it is easy though, with her measurements she knows exactly how good her students are and any sort of standardized testing to evaluate teacher performance would just be the same thing applied to teachers.

 

Not taking sides here, but many of us are in non-teaching jobs that have piss-poor metrics for measuring job performance and the setting of rewards from said metrics. Teachers are hardly unique in that aspect.

I do agree they are underpaid, but most work for the government here in the us, so what do they expect? What does your appointed lawyer make as comapred to the one you hire? I always thought that teaching was more of a calling and the reward is not in the pay..... but that's just me.

 

I'll give it a try. The fundamental difference to me between a teacher and Joe Widget-maker is that there aren't competing ideologies about what is the goal of widget-making whereas there are distinct styles to education that have different goals. You make some widgets, and if they are of a sufficient quality that is completely objective you're good to go, but when there is a division between what you want out of a widget the possibility of an objective judgement is lessened. In a math class it can be argued that the information need only be remembered to make yourself applicable to employment later, whereas in a mandatory English class the goal isn't so clear. I doubt I had to read Beowulf because that will be a necessary part of my job later or that it was of vital importance in the job market to understand transcendentalism. Some people think education should be a strictly fact-memorization vocational process while others think it should be about developing life-long thinkers and learners. The cliche of teaching "what to think" opposed to "how to think" comes to mind. Having objective measurements that judge only the fact memorization part places vast importance on the former at the expense of the latter and I, along with others I presume, resent that. I did terrible in classes where it was all memorization and no free thought or participation. To have that standard be enforced by placing teachers livelihoods on the line just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

I'm not seeing the point here. Because other jobs use bad measurements then somehow that means education deserves the same treatment?

 

If you have a system that can measure the immaterial things that are partially the goals of some courses like a desire to learn and think independently, or a growing appreciation for the subject matter, that can be directly linked to a teacher and their performance, than by all means, share it. But to state that a system that encourages bad teaching is better than a system that allows you to teach the way you see fit, within reason of course, just doesn't cut it in my book. One way encourages universally bad practices, the other gives the talented teachers the freedom to encourage learning in ways that actually work. As others have stated in this thread, bad teachers can and do get fired and their performances can be reviewed. You act like they can just get away with anything which is simply untrue.

And so if they DO have something different, it's your duty to take it from them? A race to the bottom only gets you to the bottom, you know. I don't see the point in decrying them for having job security and what is really a modest income.

 

As you quoted both BTA and I, I can't speak for BTA but that was NOT my point my friend. I thought my followly paragraph explained my position, apparently not though. So, to follow up, my point was that teachers aren't special cases. I feel many fields need to sure-up/define in better ways how they treat/pay/reward said professions.

 

I know that wasn't your point BOV, I just quoted your part to put BTA's statement in context.

 

Or "BTA's Secret Plot To Oppress Teachers Everywhere Through Performance Standards Subterfuge."

 

You said any system is better than no system, implying that a system that encourages bad teaching is better than no system at all.

I never said it was impossible, I merely said that if you have a way to do it then share it. I'm not a teacher so I couldn't tell you how they grade those things, although i'm pretty sure student participation plays a role.

What L.A Times article? I didn't see it in this thread.

California is the exception to the rule then. Here in PA we had a teacher get fired for allegations of abuse. That should be changed but i'm not seeing how evaluating teachers performances is relevant to this since this is a case of clear misconduct and not anything to do with actual teaching. You can easily make such things an automatic case for firing without putting in evaluations of dubious effectiveness.

The school system is in shambles? That's a pretty broad statement with no support, especially when this is somehow being pinned on teachers. So is blaming teachers for drop-out rates.

 

You'll have to forgive me for not taking your word for it that this article (that I couldn't find in a google search) is definitive proof that these measurements work, and that teachers are somehow to blame for every problem in the education system. I've said my piece on your measurements but I haven't gotten a response that addresses it.

 

It would be fair to say that just as my comments are informed by my Canadian experience, Joa's by his Swedish experience, and Baronius by his Hungarian experience, so BTA's is informed by his California experience.