What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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Backstabbing? Nothing? A F/M/T can still tank while effected by mislead and all of his attacks will be backstabs. The F/M/T can also effectively take out the strongest enemy before the battle even starts. Defensively, the Blade clearly beats a F/M/T pre-ToB (but not a F/Ill....and not if you factor in scroll usage), but the F/M/T can deal far more damage in far less time than a Blade can.The thief class also adds such goodies as traps and detect illusions....so I'd hardly call those thief levels "worthless".

Heck, the reason I've always played a F/M/T was because I noticed that the only real difference between a F/T and a F/M/T was, like, 2 points of Thac0 and a few hitpoints (which were largely compensated for by casting find familiar)....and the fact that a F/M/T can cast level 8 spells and contingencies by the end of the game (well worth a few hitpoints and a point or two of Thac0.....and a heck of a lot better than what you'll get with a straight thief). There was no real benefit to the extra thieving abilities a F/T or even a single class thief will gain since the F/M/T is already able to max every single thieving skill......and the important ones can easilly be mastered by level 10.

[ June 17, 2006, 01:13: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Also offensive spin doesn't work in conjunction with either haste and the blade can't whirlwind or backstab.

So he'll be hitting alot less and for less damage.

 

@ Pseudo
So now we're up to 3 HLAs... Whirlwind, Assasination and UAI. My discussion was not the Blade is the best (I think the F/M is). It was in response to Ascendency-Down's claim that the F/M/T is a better tank that a Blade. You have much slower leveling, fewer HP, etc... for what? Fighter Attack Bonuses (+1 1/2).

@Drew
For a tank, I would rather have one that can survive longer (i.e. better defensively) than one that can backstab (which I have never once done in any BG game). Not that it's not powerful, but the enemies you really need a good tank against (the boss characters) are immune to backstabs. So yeah, a F/M/T can do better against orks... lovely.

Also, the "goodies" is where I disagree. Traps make for a more useful character but not a better tank. This is one of the problems I have with the F/M. It may make a stellar tank but most of the time, it'll be more effective casting spells than tanking. So I agree - the F/M/T is more useful and more versatile. However, is it a better tank? I like the F/M more (faster leveling mainly)

 

I thought we agreed that tanking involved withstanding attack? An F/M/T affected by Mislead won't be absorbing anything, and will in fact leave their party open as the enemies focus on the characters they can see. Talking solo, OTOH, not being targetted is even better than not getting hit.

Oh, and incidentally, a Blade can backstab while invisible, so backstabbing as an advantage of the F/M/T is out. Of course, there is the cheese factor since bards shouldn't be able to, but those who take advantage of such exploits would make it an almost even match.

 

The bug you are referencing is only found in BG1. Also, even under mislead, the F/M/T will still be the subject of melee attacks....which is what I thought a tank was for.

Regarding the defense/offense argument regarding tanks....I see it as a balancing act. The fact that your protections don't last as long (which isn't really true, since stoneskin has like an 8 hour duration and PFMW stops a F/M/T from ever losing skins anyway......and I don't bother with stuff like blur and mirror image once I have PFMW)isn't really a big deal when you're enemies die more quickly.

 

You forgot that the Blade's protective spells will also last longer than the F/M/T and F/M's, allowing him to tank for longer. THAC0 is not an issue here since the Blade can reach THAC0 enough to hit what monsters there are in ToB as good as just the others can. The only real weakness they have is their number of attacks per round - at max they can only have 8.

You are forgetting that Blades are easier characters to develop and the the true bulk of their skills come earlier than the Multiclasses'.

As much as I favor using the "mislead exploit" as you call it I have also been telling people for as long that the Blade doesn't need to rely on these exploits. They are mentioned in my guide because they exist and are fun to try out. There is no reason why a Blade's simulacrum can't be used to play the Enhanced Bard Song to complement the Blade's own abilities, etc. One song is enough to raise the Blade's own abilities considerably.

You are also forgetting that Blades also have the Thief HLA's and can focus on these more than the FMT can since the FMT has to balance between Fighter, Mage and Thief HLA's. F/M's don't have these HLAs - Evasion (or Avoidance? forgotten the HLA name) and the Improved version, etc.
Since we're on the subject of tanking it strikes me why we're even concerned about Attacks Per Round because I could easily make up a good HLA Trap arguement defense if this attribute matters at all where tanking is involved, and a hundred item comboes that require the UAI HLA (a skill no F/M has which is why I favor F/M/T's and Bards over these. The Barbarian/Mage, however, is a class new to me since iirc you can't SK these, so I haven't considered those).

Since we're talking about a tanker in a party, there are only a thousand other ways the other 5 party members can be as so they can deal damage fast enough to destroy anything worth tanking.

[ June 17, 2006, 18:40: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

Actually, you can. The Barbarian is considered a fighter kit by the engine.

 

If we care solely about the protection spells, the Blade is the better tank compared to a F/M/T. There's no question about it. But I agree with Drew in this case: Who cares about protective spells that last a bit longer, when all your enemies are already dead? I'm quite aware that this point of view is stretching the boundaries of the definition of a tank, but damage-dealing potential should play a role in my opinion.

A Blade who maximizes his attacks per round will usually wield Scarlet Ninja-to and Belm. Both are great off-hand weapons, but don't excel in the main hand. Furthermore, whenever he casts Tenser's Transformation to boost his THAC0, he won't be able to cast spells.

A F/M/T has the luxury to wield - according to requirement - the Flail of Ages (elemental damage, slow effect), Purifier (maximizing MR), Celestial Fury (backstabbing, while using Assassination), Blackrazor (level-draining), Foebane (draining HP) and so forth, while still being able to maintain the maximum of 10 attacks per round and to cast spells. He can adapt to the game environment without running out of steam or options. In principle, the Blade has the same versatility - but he will pay for it by a lower rate of attacks and therefore less firepower. And that's a trade-off which I personally dislike.

 

... but which he makes up for with his Bardic abilities.
Nicely put, that. Sums up everything pretty well.

 

The great philosopher Minsc summed up a 'tank' best.

"you point, I punch"

He is the guy that stands square forward holding up and descimating the enemy while the spell types buff, disrupt and mass harm the enemy.

A High level Beserker buffed by the party magi is about as good as it gets.

But when we are talking the best of the best...

Put Great defensive eq on Sarevok, give him the Silver sword and let him loose. If you are buffing right, disabling the enemy right and micromanaging then he is THE Numero Uno of Tanks. Number one, the King of Kings!!!!

A MONSTER!

 

Hardly. Korgan is a better tank because he will be immune to status effects and imprisonment while raging. Jaheira is also a better tank, because she can take more hits without getting hurt.

[ June 27, 2006, 03:11: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Yeah but Sarevok is sooooooo much cooler than Korgan or Jaheira. Where do you get the Scarlet-scimitar? Is Jolev in the bonus merchants mod? Basically, any fighter dualing Scarlet and Belm using the bracers of blinding strike and Vhailors helm is going to be the ultimate tank. Think about it, you have 5 a/p/r already. Improved haste puts you up to 10, when you include your magical twin in the mix doing the same thing you are...You can basically forget about taking damage cause you're laying down 20 attacks per round and you keep that up for at least 3 rounds. Basically while a f/m is busy putting up spell protections to get himself ready to tank, the fighter is moving in for the kill. Seriously, with his protections dispelled Demigorgon wouldn't last two rounds against that onslaught.

[ June 23, 2006, 16:21: Message edited by: gatsbygoon ]

 

I totally agree that Sarevok's one of the best tanks in the whole game. Sarevok/mage with the Ravager and Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization with improved haste has protection spells, 6 a/p/r and is extremely deadly against hordes and any other foes.

Sarevok/thief has UAI, which opens up a wide range of possibilities in tanking concerning that particular character...

And when you get him, he has something over 160 hp! Add a tenser's transformation on top of that !

 

Yeah Sarevok is just too bad. But I never dual him because I like fighter HLA's way too much. And deathbringer assault!!! You can't rely on it, but everytime I see it, it just brightens up my day.

PS: Can you change armor color in SK? And if not, is there a pair of black looking plate anywhere in the game?

 

There's that Full Plate +2 from the limited wish spell, but that's not exactly black. More like a very dark blackish brown.

Dumb question, but does Deathbringer assault necessitate a two-handed weapon? Probably not, but if somebody knows a definite answer, then let's hear it...

edit: Oh yeah, and only monks and thieves with UAI can wield the Scarlet Ninja-To. So unless you dual Sarevok into a thief it's a no-no.

 

Yeah I didn't know that about the scarlet ninja-to but I like thief/fighters so its still an option there. Especially if you use that with the assasination ability OMG.

 

50% yes. You can change every little piece of color on the character, but I don't know if that would apply over or under the armor. With an item editor you could even change the armor itself to a different color.

I remember that Full Plate +1 was very dark when you got it from Tamoko in BG1, but I don't remember if they've changed that for BG2.

I believe Deathbringer Assault just requires him to hit something. I wouldn't be surprised if his fists could do it.

 

"I believe Deathbringer Assault just requires him to hit something. I wouldn't be surprised if his fists could do it. "

Makes me wonder. Are dragons immune to non-magic weapons. I would really love to knock one out if at all possible.

2 questions: Where can I get an item editor? And are there any as user friendly as SK.

 

thanks