What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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Faraaz said:

Of course, a legit multiclassed character can't attain Grandmastery.

Pseudospawn said:

I disagree. I used a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist who switched between the Ravager Halberd and Staff of the Magi in melee. He was pretty powerful! When you think about it though, I do find dual weilding to be more powerful (I'm a fan of the Flail of Ages or Axe of Unyeilding with the Equalizer in the offhand).

Ilmater's Suffering said:

It's a bit of a pain in SoA, but I find that I'm always getting hit, no matter what armor I wear in ToB.

starwalker said:

Silghtly off-topic, but the reason IMO to use the Equalizer is for the defensive protections. The offensive bonuses are just gravy.

 

Ah so nothing.I have tested the Rat form with the flail Defender but it doesn't stack.
Anyway the Rat form is not bad at all.You can distract enemies with your Rat-character and he will be able to resist a lot.

As for the best Tank I insist on the F/M (dual or multi).You don't need physical resistance when they can't hit you
And a F/M has a big advantage over R/C or F/D.He has Mirror Image and many other buffs.And also the only character who can protect them with SI.


EDIT : Just tested the Rat form with a Barbarian and his innate resistance stacks with that of the rat for a total of %110 physical resistance

And also I was wrong.Hardiness and resistances from items stack too ! For a max of %127 p.res..Unfortunately physical damage does not heal the rat

The drawback is that you can't stay for much time shapechanged and also the rat's claws do 2 dmg/hit (though it can still attack with the off-hand weapon).
I haven't tested what happens with some cats around though

[ May 23, 2006, 01:15: Message edited by: thetruth ]

 

We've recreated Mighty Mouse!!!!

 

@Klorox
I'm apprehensive about ravager. You complete it at the same time as Unyielding, it hardly seems worth it, although there are alot of nice halberds to keep you going till then, if you want to specialise.

Vorpal is glorious when it hits but axe of unyielding has the same effect with regeneration & ac. Even if i didn't want to dual wield for the extra 2hits and combat bonuses, i could put on a useful shield (harmony, reflection etc) and remove many dangers.

1handed just seems the way to go, the potential damage & immunities/bonuses from the 2nd hand outpower any 2h weapon (except maybe holy avenger).

[ May 23, 2006, 01:39: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

 

Yes 2-handed weapon style is not the best for a F/M.He can still use the Staff of the Magi for the dispelling but then dual wielding for the rest.Dual-Wielding + Improved Haste is what makes a F/M so special in offense.

Also the Axe of Unyielding allows a save vs. Death at -4.The description is wrong.

 

If were talking about a tank **looks at the topic title** then they don't necessarily need to do the dispelling.

I would have someone like jan at the back, hitting them with breach & whatnot, then pelting them with arrows of dispelling.

The tank's only job is to take the aggro and leave the enemies open for the rest of the party to attack, we're looking for a valuable team member not a soloist.

 

Yes but the F/M can do both at the same time without problems.Why not take full advantage of his abilities ?

 

As I hate to rest for every other fight to restore my spells, I certainly don't go for the fighter/mage. My favorite class is the barbarian, which has a ton of hitpoints, damage resistance and can rage to become immune to a lot of things.

My last barbarian had 65% damage resistance (20% native, 20% DoE, 25% David Gaider's Bhaalpower), 100% fire resistance and 95% cold resistance, making him the most resistant tank I've ever created. Throw in Foebane +5 for the Larloch's Minor Drain and his hitpoints occasionally soared over the 300. With a Hardiness he could easily stand toe to toe with the demon on the second level of the WK. I love barbarians.

20% you mean.

 

Wasn't there a mod out there that made Barbarians able to dual class!? In fact im very sure since i had a go at one earlier.

I could have sworn it was g3tweaks that allowed it but i can't seem to find any reference in the readme so its some other mod im running.

Isn't missile resistance a moot point if you know its coming? Surely you would just equip Shield of Reflection and let them eat their own arrows.

@henkie
A fighter/mage is a dependant on resting between big battles as your barb is on equipment.

It sounds to me like your barb is quite tame until they get their 'uber gear', hit a high enough level for the max innate resistance and get the 4th bhaalspawn power.

Thats alot of variables where as the fighter/mage is strong from the get go, able to withstand or avoid most every kind of damage, utilize every piece of equipment found and takedown the tougher monsters.

Fighter/Mages are better soloists and tanks.

 

Is it only 40% for Hardiness? I so rarely use it that I'm not that familiar with the specifics.
/me checks
Yep, you're right. I stand corrected.

 

I love this argument. Even as wrong as it is. Several of the protection you guys rave about you have to both collect the scrolls to cast the spells you rely on as well as get to a high enough level to cast them. You might start with stone skin but that's hardly all the stuff you swear by.

On top of that the Fighter/Mage's biggest strength is what? Time Stop combat. An Affect that you can't even dispel protections in so you have to dispel the protections and then time stop and then attack.

You've got to gather your stuff much more than the barbarian does.

the Barbarian's bonus is that most of it's advantage needs no equipment or collected items to make. The Defender of East Haven is easy to get at the beginning of the game if you want to enhance the resistance. By the End of SoA with that single item Your only enhancing the Barbarian But I wouldn't sneeze at just about halving any physical damage the barbarian can take before you even get out of SoA.

The Barbarian makes an Excellent tank without Equipment. It doesn't take up a bunch of equipment slots to get the protection. It doesn't need to collect particular items such as spell scrolls to get that way. That leaves a lot of slots open to further increase his tankability in various ways.

the Inertial Barrier Belt is just one of those Items that is just further boosting. It adds on Magic protection to go with the Physical protection. Takes just one Item.

But I know you guys like to look at STats and stuff. So I'll bring something into the argument. Stat's.

To give the best Barbarian Stat's we'll go for an Evil Half-Orc Barbarian(or one that turns evil in the hell trials)

Half-Orc's can start with 19 strength and 19 Con but only 16 intelligence.

Purely in BG2 and not counting the books found in BG1 we end up with max-stats without stat boosting items like this.

Strength:24(19 Base, +3 for Evil Wrath, +1 Lum's Machine, +1 Deck of Many Things)
Dexterity:19(18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)
Con:20/22*(19 Base, +1 Lum's Machine) There is a choice here though. +2 for Evil Fear =Faster regen or the limited immunity to weapons
Intelligence:17(16 Base, +1 Lum's Machine
Wisdom:19(18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)
Charisma:19 (18 Base, +1 Lum's Machine)

I'll let you guys alter the numbers for having the books from BG1 applied on your own. The strength bonus in fact becomes non-existant with the books applied because you max out the strength. I think it's the only non- Crom Faeyr way to do it in a single game but they make the stat boost from the Barbarian Rage unimportant once you get it all together.


I bring up these numbers partly because they bring up key points. Should you wish to enhance your Barbarian you clearly don't need a Strength item(sacrifice a single point of strength from the best strength item in the game and even a good Barbarian doesn't need one) This let's you use the intertial Barier belt which is nice for any tank. The Regeneration though a bit slow is nice because it can let you put the regeneration items on other characters.

The Dexterity sadly is not quite enough even with a book of Dexterity to get an increase to AC and they cannot wear the one Armor that would give the Dex bonus that would put their Dexterity to 21. But the Dexterity boost is the only special thing they would get out of the armor anyway.

Intelligence and Wisdom Are great stats but not vital to the Barbarian Really.

Charisma only if your using him to sell stuff.

combined with the Resistances to all physical Damage that they do take. Which can be augmented by a couple items if you desire. They are an excellent tank. A Tank is a component to a Group. Not a do everything Character. The more I look into them the more I think they might be one of the best if not the best tanks out there.

Their advantages are constant and do not need real buffing or repeated rest and it leaves a lot of item slots open to Customize your character further through equipment and such. You could go for Elemental type Resistances. AC boosting Items. If your of the mind to have your Barbarian wield one of the best items in the game in the Flail of Ages. The Defender of East Haven is an easy to get second hand weapon that doesn't even require it's own Proficiencies to take advantage of.

It's got a lot of pluses for a non-magic casting character working in a position to be supported by magic casters.

[ May 23, 2006, 21:50: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

I still have a problem with this 'not having to rest between big fights' argument.

The tank is part of a team, yes the barb may not be a spellcaster but one or more of their team is.

You're gonna have to rest anyway to give the clerics back their heals or the mages their breachs & lower resists. So how much of a hit is it to have to rest a tank that needs to buff when you're already going to in order to refresh the main spellcasters.

 

Actually with a good combination you can go through a number of fights without your mages having to rest or your clerics needing more heal spells. Without the need for the buffs on your tanks you also save a lot of spell slots.

I seem to have plenty of spells to go around for a while and mostly just make sure to replenish myself if I've gotten low on spells and I'm about to take something big on such as a dragon or a really hard enemy. The barbarian as your tank means you need even less healing spells. Get it regenerating and that goes even further. Regeneration items on other characters in the group and you find your casting less on them too.

mages have a lot of strengths other than just breaching a few mages and buffing things up.

 

Well Duh.

 

Pseudospawn:

My example was a poor one for this thread. My Gnome F/I that used Ravager was not the most powerful tank, even in his own party. The Axe of Unyeilding went to another character, and I agree that it's better.

 

2-handed weapons have some very nice effects that you wont find on any 1-hander. Soul Reaver will make melee enemies cry. Carsomyr lets you ignore a good deal of the mages in the game. Staff of the Ram does more damage then anything else you'll ever find. Staff of the Magi lets you escape most situations and remove enemy protections while still swinging.

Also take into consideration that no matter which you use, you'll have 10 attacks late game thanks to whirlwind.

Early game, 1-handed weapons are definitely better. Late game, I prefer 2-handers in most cases.

 

Staff of Magi whilst having some sweet constant effects and a dispel on hit, has a thac0 bonus that makes it far less effective in combat than an obvious melee weapon. and serves more as mean of escape for the weakly mage than weapon of mass destruction.

Carsomyr, even with this sword a paladin isn't as good a tank as f/m or barb, magic resistance removes most mage worries but cloak of mirroring has equal if not better effects. Plus i've always preferred the foebane/answerer & purifier combo for damage/defense/enemy weakening.

Soul Reaver, whilst having one of my favourite on hit effects is for evil characters only. Which sucks if you wanna play elitist good or redeem sarevok at some point.

 

The Thac0 bonus may suck on the Staff of the Magi but it's other bonuses are really nice. Not to mention that I don't think there there is a thing in the game that it cannot hit. If I'm not mistaken it's enchantment is pretty high.

Carsomyr also does a lot more than simply provide Magic Resistance. It's dispel affect is also powerful.

The cloak of mirroring's affects might be considered equal by some but not better. The affects are limited. There are far too many spells where it just doesn't protect you. Either because they aren't aimed directly at you or because it just plain does not affect them. For example. Cloak of Mirroring does nothing for you in an incindiary cloud or the like. Magic Resistance there is a chance each round that your in the spells area of affect that you will ignore that rounds damage.

Soul Reaver's got it's counterparts. The Azure Edge for example can only be used in a good characters hands yet it's rather useful for most of the game with the ammount of undead that exists.

 

SoM is +5 enchantment, and it has dispel per hit ability (%100 sure dispelling of everything), invisibility and pro from evil, and a cheesy Spelltrap which lasts practically till you rest. That weapon is the BEST a mage can ever dream to acquire no doubt that.

 

A F/M can always use 2-handed weapons like Staff of the Magi for it's special abilities (Dispel/hit,which ignores SI:Abjuration btw ,Spell Trap) but he is far more effective using 2 weapons and improved haste.

Also the most damaging weapon in the game is the FoA +5 and not the Staff of the Ram,with one exception: when using the Critical strike HLA the Staff of the Ram does more dmg/hit.But it cannot even be compared to the FoA (best weapon in the game IMHO).