What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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@Klorox: Oops!! My bad! I've been playing modded BG2 for so long I forgot only Specialisation for non-fighters!! Heh..well, I still stand by what I said. Okay, so you get like half an attack less, and you deal out like 1-2 points of damage less per hit...but you STILL do way more damage and have a LOT more staying power than any other melee tank in legit BG2...

 

It's hard to answer this question since personal preferences will come to play at some point - among other things.

As an analogy, is Belm the best one handed weapon for dual wielding since it increases your number of attacks, which further enhances the striking power of Crom Faer or any other weapon X in your main hand or is Crom Faer or any other weapon X the best one handed weapon since Belm further enchances its striking power by increasing your number of attacks? Then we'd have to take into consideration if you prefer Crom Faer to the Flail of Aegis, Celestial Fury...

It's how it is with this arguement. IMO, the best tank is the Blade - combine Thief HLAs, Bard HLAs and spells, you get the idea. But as a side effect the Blade also enhances the tanking abilities of his party mates - so the F/M, R/C or whatnot gain some hefty bonuses that in fact allow them to surpass the Blade's tanking ability. Personal preference then comes into play - if you think the Blade class is only a tool and the best tanking classes are in fact the F/M, R/C or whatnot then you'll have to settle on whether you want a tanker who can spam divine spells like there's no tomorrow (in the case of the R/C), cast arcane spells (like the F/M)...

You'll notice I failed to mention the Berserker/Barbarian. Remember that we were considering items in the original analogy, where we were concerned about the best dual wielding weapon. Where classes are being considered then remember that we're concerned about BG2 - and as far as BG2 is concerned, magic plays a very important role in how well a character can tank, especially in ToB. It's not fair to customize the game to fit a certain class only - as far as BG2 is concerned, for example, a Bard has as much access to powerful items right after escaping Irenicus' Dungeon as a Barbarian has access to that suit of Splint Mail and that Long Sword in the room northwest of where Irenicus caged you. As long as something is accessible then we can include it when we're considering the classes and their capabilities, as long as these items (or factors - the things that you experience or gain that make your character stronger in the game) come into play at a time where their usage can still be maximized.

Character class X + Spell Protections, good items and a Bard.

 

Tutu Tweak's Expanded Dual-Class Options allows you to dual a Barbarian (and a Wild Mage) immunity to damage and backstab is awesome and the extra speed is helpful.
Although the Barbarian is in fact a Fighter kit (which means you could use SK to MC one) there is a problem about the HPs: you don't get the maximum of the D12 whereas you can always get 10 points for a D10 on a level up.
This can be slightly annoying.

Tanking is essentially about buffing (via spells and items), high resistances and extra HPs.
IMHO a Barbarian/Druid would be great (or a Berserker in an unmodded game) just think about good old Jaheira.

 

Caradras: Can you dual a Barbarian into a Wild Mage, or is WM considered a kit?

 

WM is considered a kit. So you couldn't dual to it anyway (without SK) even if you didn't already have a kit. But even with SK the double kitting of Barbarian/Wild Mage is impossible.

 

You can only have one kit so you have to pick the kit in your first class hence it is possible -using the mod I mentioned- to create a Wild Mage and later dual into a Fighter (or a Thief or a Cleric) but not into another kit.
What you can do if you are not adverse to a little "tweaking" is using SK to make a MC character Wild Mage/Fighter or Barbarian/Mage.
It is also possible with SK to edit your character so you can start as a true class Fighter (or Thief or Cleric) and then dual into Mage and then edit your mage class to use the Wild Mage kit.
There is something to be said about a Barbarian/Mage as a tank but since it is not a legit option...

 

How would I make an uber tank? Making one right now: elven F/M/T, straight from the beginning of BG1 to the very end. Mainly soloing through BG1 for the fun of it, but I will have a full party later on, after Gorion's been revenged.

And why's F/M/T the best tank? Simply because of the versatility. All needed benefits from every class for tanking: the spells, the hitpoints and best of all: the knowledge from good scouting from where you can't be seen and the initiative in combat, severely maiming the opponent with the very first strike. In team combat, you attack from the shadows appropriately protected. Get all the attention you need for diversion, bring on your teammates with ranged weapons and spells.

In BG1 no tank is actually needed, since its ranged weapons and backstabbing that wins the day. And if you really want something between you and your enemies, try some monster summoning. Letting one of your teammates take punches is pointless, when you can fall back, fire another barrage of missiles and fall back again. It's not cowardice, it's tactics.

On the other hand, when going gets tough, and it's always hard on tanks, since they will eventually get hit, hard, the best tanks are those that can dish out the most damage, or take those punches and shrug them off. This is why F/M/T is the best. She can do both, right from the very begginning. Sure, she won't have any armor on if you want to use her full potential, but there are spells good enough for AC in the start not to mention about mirror image. In SoA you'll have stoneskins, elven chains and Robe of Vecna. In ToB (or sooner) you'll have Jansen Adventure Wear(tm) and Hardiness with DoE AND all those spells which make the F/M so great.

Sure she won't have mage's high level spells, sure there won't be any 9th level spells at all and of course the mage part of her will be a little underplayed all the way. But you might want to look at it this way: we're looking at the best tank here, not the best caster.

Only things competing with F/M/T would be a dwarven F/T, but she won't have the spells from the very beginning, and F/M/C, but she won't have the possibility for those insta-kill weapons the F/M/T has, especially the Axe of the Unyielding.

 

@Iku-Turso
I think you've confused
"What makes the best tank, in your opinion?" with
"Powergamer's choice: Which Fighter/Mage combo is best?"

Tank's don't backstab or engage in missile combat.
They run in, draw the enemy's attacks leaving the enemy open for the rest of the tank's team to kill.

EDIT: yes i know a good tank would damage/weaken the enemy aswell, they just wouldn't do it from a distance or in the shadows.

 

Fine. If the backstabbing's a problem, then you can always use two-handed swords. And I never did say that this F/M/T would be using bows. That would be wasting a good tank.

And even if you wouldn't sneak up on the enemy, the F/M/T is still the best tank. She's got the spells, the UAI, and the fighter HLA's. These are IMO the things that make the best tank. AC is negligible, you'll never have enough of it to make it really count, but you can have an armored battle-mage from F/M/T with scrolls and wands, if you want.

 

A F/M/T makes the best tank in the game if you aren't using the fixpack. He gets the two items necessary to be a good tank (stoneskin and pfmw) and can potentially deliver more damage than any other class in the game. (Dual wield + Improved Haste + Assassination) In other words, he can suck up attacks just as well as a fighter/mage but, in some cases, can deliver a lot more damage.

 

What does the fixpack change that changes this status as ultimate tank?

 

People People People. Tanks are not a do everything character. The best solo character that can do everything does not necessarily make the best tank. The Tank is a Group Player.

Please keep that in mind. F/M/T is the ultimate solo char by a lot of people but it is not the best tank. There is so much that holds it back in a group that it's not even close to funny. A tripple class character like this may be very versatile and powerful on it's own but in a group it is vastly weaker than the other characters as a price for that versatility. It does not make a good tank at all. Jan Wearing some rediculously heavy armor that disables his spell costing is about the equivilant of a F/M/T as a Tank.

and you can have enough armor to make it really count. There are only a few enemies that can beat a good AC and they are particular creatures that the fight should be hard anyway. Things like Barbarians can weather a fair ammount of the blows from these types of enemies. Particularly when backed up by healing and support from the other characters in the group.

 

2 things to the two of you:
1. Backstabbing is excellent in a tank, Pseudo. It dishes out some serious damage to the worst enemy, followed up by the staying power of tanking. Backstabbing doesn't neccessitate running away to re-stealth.
2. Semantics and back-pedaling, I-T. You may not have said "bows", but you frequently referenced missile weapons and retreating from battle...

That being said...

...this is right on the money. And an SKed Barbarian/Mage/Thief would rock anyone. The only problem being the lack of levels. With XP split three ways, an F/M/T will be severely lagging behind their party by the end of ToB.

 

@Starwalker: If all things are equal between tanks, versatility and damage causing potential become the deciding factor in determining what makes "the best" tank. We already know that a warrior/mage-type character is "the best" tank in most situations since he will, in essence, be completely invulnerable to physical attack. The question becomes "what type of Warrior/Mage-type character is "the best". The answer is simple. Either a Fighter/Illusionist (more spells) or F/M/T (multiple assasinations if you aren't using the fixpack, UAI) is going to take the cake. A F/M/T or F/M will "out-tank" any warrior any time. This line of discussion is 100% valid concerning the question of what makes the best tank.

Versatility is a huge issue when determining what makes "the best tank". Remember, of all the characters in the party, your tank needs to be the best at not getting killed while embroiled in melee. The best characters at not getting killed in melee are druids (ironskins),mages, and bards(stoneskin, mirror image, PFMW, contingencies, and even Fireshield- since dead enemies can't damage your tank). Druids are out, though, because they just can't inflict the kind of damage that a F/M or even a bard can inflict. Fighter druids are in the running, but their defenses drop too easily to a simple dispell magic....a problem a wizard can easily circumvent.

His levels will be high enough. He will have better spellcasting than a bard, all of his thieving skills maxed, and will only be missing a couple points from his Thac0 by the end of ToB when compared to a straight fighter. This type of character is unlikely to waste his HLA's on whirlwind since he can cast improved haste and dual wield, so any times where those couple Thac0 points actually matter he can just compensate with improved critical or smite.....or tenser's transformation.

[ June 02, 2006, 09:12: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

F/M, with Aslyferund Elven Chain +5 (can cast spells with it on, and it is immune to normal weapons). Of course you can't get it without cheating at least until ToB. (I'm not sure if it can be gotten without cheating) Yes Klorox, I know, you don't cheat, but I felt it warrented discussion anyways.

 

Assuming that F/M/T is the perfect tank, what would be your ideal equipment/weapon setup for them?

Would you be constantly changing gear for each battle or is there an 'uber' selection?

 

The other thing about a F/M/T as a tank would be that the most important and commonly used spells are not levels 8 and 9 (where you'll be missing most of the spells). It's levels 4-6 that are really important for all the spells listed (there are other good ones but they won't be your commonly casted spells).

 

Actually. REalistically the Fighter/Mage is hindering itself but I can certainly concede that it is definitely in the running. It's got to spend rounds casting it's protective spells. During which it's got to have somebody else protecting it so that it's spells aren't interrupted. The only defenses that are really of an invulnerable type of protection last a very short duration and are dispellable by any good mage. A combination of a mage doing a quick dispelling of your PfMW and a Tank doing something like Greater Whirlwind to strip off things like your stone skin and your fighter mage can be killed pretty easily because the main defenses your claiming are so perfect have just utterly failed the so called tank.

As for the F/M/T the bonus's that would help in a fight from the fighter abilities are severely undercut. Assassination doesn't work on the enemies you really want them to in ToB and they don't work against the Barbarian either.


The Primary Advantages to the tank are severely undercut by the F/M/T. Your Thac0 is going to take a hit because of your considerably lower level in a group. your Armor rating is going to take quite the hit because you can't wear most of the armors in the game unless you want to shut off your mage spells. The thief not only does it not bring much of anything to the table(UAI is of little benefit because it doesn't stop the Armor restriction all spell casting if I'm not mistaken) Assassination is out because several of the biggest enemies you really need it with it doesn't work. On top of that. Your damage multiplier is fairly undercut for a decent part of the game.

Your Max Levels are about half of what single classes can get and this means a lot. your Fighter is not every going to reach it's lowest thac0 because if you can even get it done by the end of the game you can only hit about level 18 or 19.
Your mage side is only going to be able to cast the 9th level spells if your lucky and it won't be able to cast more than like 1. because it's top level is 17. You won't even be able to cast PfMW until you build up 1,125,000XP on your character and that is only enough to cast it once. Not good for your main protection spell when it only lasts 4 rounds. There is also the problem that if you want to use Contingency. Now you must choose. Contingency or PfMW and PfMW can't go in your contingency spell anyway. Your Thief side will get to level 22. But without UAI adding on that important ability to cast with armor and Assassination not working when you would really want you to that primarily leaves you with traps. Hanging back and relying on traps while extremely effective is not really tanking. Truthfully it's only going to contribute one possible thing. That is the ability to see through illusions.

Now i know some of you are going to scream "Spell Imunity:Abjuration!" Go ahead. It actually works against you. Even if I don't manage to dispel your PfMW before you cast it. I simply only have to wear you down for three rounds and then you can't recast PfMW on yourself. In battles where it really counts. Your not going to beat them in just three rounds. We also can't forget that every round your casting another spell to defend or buff yourself. That's another round your not doing damage to the enemy and thus that means more potential damage to your tank. When some of the spells are of very limited duration that gives you a problem on your hands.

Versatility is really a small issue and it really bites you in the butt in some ways to get it. A Bard is much better than a F/M/T. Partly for Higher Casting level. Perhaps a few fewer spells but they can cast any one that a triple class could and they have less working against them. Got to remember that some of the spells your relying on in part care about what your casting level is. Stone Skin and Mirror Image being two of them.

But you know what. None of this addresses the biggest Problem against the F/M/T. It's slow to level even when solo'ing. In a group of 6 it becomes Extremely slow to level. To get that 1.125 Million Experience to get high enough to cast level 6 spells alone. The Rest of your party is all going to be up over 3mil a piece if they are single class characters. This means they are all level 20 or more when your so called tank is still level 11.

The Priest in your party will have a lower Thac0. When your support character is out hitting and recieving blows better than your so called Tank you've got a problem and need to reconsider who your tank is in the party. Give your priest the Crom Faeyr to Enhance that and let him go to town. Your F/M/T can sit in support.

Edit to add something: The armor can't be gotten before ToB without cheating it in in some way. The only one that can make it is Cespenar which means you have to be in ToB. The AC is much needed and a very good thing for any multi-class mage however. But if the tank in your party is your main character then the protection from normal weapons is actually useless and redundant if your good or neutral because of the Good Reward for the Fear Trial which makes you immune to +1 or less weapons.

[ June 02, 2006, 10:17: Message edited by: starwalker ]

 

1.) Mages need to be level 12 to cast level 6 spells, which requires twice as many XP.

2.) At 1,125,000 XP clerics are level 13, which gives them a base thac0 of 12 which is the same as a FMT's with the same experience. And a FMT gets additional thac0 and damage bonus for specialization and twice as many attacks. So a cleric will do far less than half of the damage the FMT does with the same equipment. And when fighter level 13 is reached the difference will even grow.

3.) At 3,000,000 XP a F/M/T is 12/12/14, that's a level 14 character. And not all single class characters have reached level 19 at that point.

Bard base thac0 is maxed out at 10 at level 21, that's fighter level 11, so they are even inferior to clerics in dealing out physical damage. A F/M/T can do far more than twice that much. Spell effects are capped at level 20, so the advantage isn't really big. Bard saving throws are also maxed out at level 21 and they are not really impressing then.

The FMT's slow levelling is mainly a cosmetic disadvantage.
I don't think that FMTs is the best class for a tank, but it is better than bard.

[ June 02, 2006, 14:18: Message edited by: kmonster ]

 

@starwalker
i) If xp gain is such a concern don't have a team of 6 then.
ii) You only need the protection spells from level 2-6, the loss of high level spells isn't too much of a hit unless you're playing style relied on timestops and even then a F/M/T can lay time traps.
iii) We're not fighting *you*, we're fighting monsters who with even the best modder written behaviour, still won't pose half the challenge that another player might.
iv) The toughest monsters being immune to backstab is a good thing, not a weakness in the build. Without it you'd be able to kill anything in one or two rounds, i'd be disappointed if any of the ascension 5 went down that easily.