What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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To clarify, the engine does keep the fractions. So it'd be 48.333 HP. Now, let's look at a couple places to compare.

2M XP:
Bard level 19, HP 10d6 + 18 + 20 = 48-98
F/M/T level 10/11/13, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 3 + 1 + 6 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 155) / 3 = (184-345) / 3 = 61.3-115
Assuming max HP, that's 17 difference in favor of the F/M/T.

4M XP:
Bard level 28, HP 10d6 + 36 + 20 = 66-116
F/M/T level 13/13/16, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 12 + 3 + 12 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 182) / 3 = (201-362) / 3 = 67-120.6
Evening out a bit...

6M XP:
Bard level 37, HP 10d6 + 54 + 20 = 84-134
F/M/T level 16/15/19, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 21 + 5 + 18 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 189) / 3 = (218-379) / 3 = 72.6-116.3
And the bard has decidedly won, even with a 19 CON for the F/M/T.

The reason for this? A bard gets 2HP past level 10 for a single rogue level (220K), while an F/M/T gets 2HP past level ten for a fighter level + a wizard level + a rogue level. Of course, I for one do not consider such minimal differences important when the point in ToB is not to get hit at all, lest you become a splatter upon the floor.

And, what the heck, let's do some math for the F/M while we're at it.

2M XP:
F/M level 12/12, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 6 + 6 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 107) / 2 = (126-237) / 2 = 63-118.5
Better than the F/M/T at that level, but surprisingly by not that much.

4M XP:
F/M level 16/15, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 21 + 5 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 121) / 2 = (140-251) / 2 = 70-125.5
Better than both, still by a minor margin.

6M XP:
F/M level 20/18, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 33 + 8+ 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 136) / 2 = (155-266) / 2 = 77.5-133
Just barely beaten by the bard, even with 19 CON for our beloved F/M. And we see the slower levelling interfering again, as the F/M must get a fighter level + a wizard level to get 2HP.

EDIT: Comparing spells...

2M XP:
Ba rd - 4/4/4/4/3/2/0/0/0
F/M/T- 4/4/4/3/3/0/0/0/0
F / M - 4/4/4/4/4/1/0/0/0

4M XP:
Ba rd - 6/5/5/5/5/5/5/0/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/4/4/2/0/0/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/2/1/0/0

6M XP:
Ba rd - 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/3/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/5/5/2/1/0/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/1

 

Bards don't get level 7 or 8 spells in BG2, Fel. You also left out the fact that the F/M/T keeps progressing all the way up to 8,000,000 xp when the bard will not. A lot of the HP gap between a bard and a F/M or F/M/T will be negated by this. By the end of the game, a F/M/T would have quite a few more spells than a bard as well. Unfortunately, BG2 was built to favor multi-classes.

 

They do in 2e. And most people would have the mod that fixes it. But here are the "corrections" for unmodded, if you like.

4M XP: 5/5/5/5/5/3/0/0/0
6M XP: 5/5/5/5/5/4/0/0/0

Again, lvl50 mod. Here's the stuff for 8M XP, since you asked.

Bard level 40 (unmodded), HP 10d6 + 60 + 20 = 90-140
Bard level 46 (lvl50 mod), HP 10d6 + 72 + 20 = 102-152
F/M/T level 18/17/22, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 27 + 7 + 24 + 45 + 50 + 50) / 3 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 10d6 + 203) / 3 = (232-393) / 3 = 77.3-131
F/M level 24/20, HP (9d10 + 10d4 + 45 + 10 + 45 + 50) / 2 = (9d10 + 10d4 + 150) / 2 = (169-280) / 2 = 84.5-140
Well would you look at that; even the unmodded level 40 bard wins (tied with the F/M on max, above on min & average).

Spells @ 8M XP:
BardU- 5/5/5/5/5/5/0/0/0
BardM- 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/0
F/M/T- 5/5/5/5/5/3/3/2/0
F / M - 5/5/5/5/5/4/3/3/2

The un-nerfed bard beats the F/M/T without a doubt, and is somewhat tied (hard to compare) with the F/M. Though I think a gnomish F/I would win in the spell battle easily.

 

A lot less people play with the rules fixes than you think, judging from other forums. I also never actually stated that A F/M/T would have more hitpoints at the end of ToB. I said he wouldn't have much less.

 

Thac0 is not everything. Just because a charcter has higher thac0 doesn't mean he does more damage. The number of attacks per round is more important.
A fighter with 2 attacks/round and 75 percent chance for success still hits more often than a cleric who attacks once per round with about 80 percent chance for success.
Even at this point the FMT's attack power is far superior.
DUHM can't even this out. 25 str doesn't give much more than 19 str + specialisation. +2 AC for 25 instead of 18 dex and +1 HP/round for 25 con aren't impressing.
And the FMT can also cast spells ...

Your cleric's fighting power doesn't improve anymore after level 22, just a few XP later (at 3,750,000 XP) the FMT reaches fighter level 13 which gives even more attacks, allowing him to do more twice as much damage as the cleric.

 

Wow. So my bard argument (as terrible as it was) actually has some weight.

@starwalker

The sudden encounters argumnent is a good one - and the most valid point made. I agree that a Barbarian is better in those cases - however does that matter? Is the "best" tank the one that is the best at the end of the game or the beginning... the best against dragons or the best against the slayer with no items? I mean, the best tank without any items or spells is the monk. And while the "sudden" encounters discussion is obviously more likely in BGII than no items or spells, with how many times each of us has played this game, only few encounters can truly be considered sudden and unexpected (or at least any that would require any actual tank).

As for the F/M vs. F/M/T vs. bard argument, I think much of it is irrelevant. Each is going to work in a very similar manner: buff and charge. The F/M(/T) is going to have more attacks and be able to do more damage... nothing I can say about that.

@Drew
If you prevent the PfMW from being dispelled with SI:Abj., how are you going to recast it?

Additionally, one of the things I like about using mainly buffing spells (like the ones I listed), are that they also help with saving throws which PfMW doesn't. This is important to me because much of the time, a tank will be the one toe-to-toe with something that can cast spells (dragons and beholders come to my mind first). PfMW won't help much. I don't mean to suggest that you wouldn't cast other more helpful spells in those situations; however, the useful thing about spell-casters as tanks is that they are very versatile against their enemy-type. A Barbarian can rage and avoid many effects as well... but still will take magic damage.

 

I'm of the opinion that it should be overall through the game. That's why some of my arguments have had at least some statement towards the lateness that things like the F/M/T get certain things. That does mean a lot in my opinion to what works.

Kmonster the attacks do mean something but it's a sum of the parts. Think about the point at which the F/M/T finally gets that extra attack. It is so far behind other things that it's almost frightening. The Priest can easily get two attacks if you forgo a shield. One thing I didn't bring up but is a valid point is the fact that All three Priest kits add something to the Priest in the way of tankability.


Priests of Lothander get a spell that can get quite the duration. and boosts their to hit, damage, and saving throws as well as giving an extra attack a round. With two weapons that means a priest of Lothander can now make 3 attacks around. This equals any fighter with a two handed weapon when you don't count Greater Whirlwind. it is also a good defense against level draining powers and by the end of the game can be cast multiple times. Each one with an incredibly long duration. I'm leaving out the potential of the hold undead spell it gets for free as well.

The Priest of Helm is less well rounded in it's signature power. It get seeking sword. Effectively a +4 enchantment for figuring out what it can hit. Gets 3 hits a round and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some bug or forgotten piece in the game engine that actually allows you to still get yet one more attack from an offhand weapon making 4 a round. It lasts quite a number of rounds at high level. This one has a serious drawback the other priests don't have though. You can't cast spells for it's lengthy duration. The other extra spell is very much a support spell but nice to have. True Sight.

The Priest of Talos has a signature power that is super defense. Again it will end up with a rediculously long duration at high level. And I believe it's protection is 100% but I have to double check. but it does lightning, fire, cold, and normal missiles. So you've now protected yourself from some of the most abundant and annoying damage in the game both in the form of spells and in the form of protections, and even enchantments on weapons that cause these types of damage. As an added kicker. they can cast lightning bolt. Talk about convenient and offensive.

Yet None of these three compare to what a good Tank can do with a group backing them up even when you include a spell like Draw Upon Holy Might which is actually a triple bonus to all of the important stats to a tank and yet they can outdo say the F/M/T then you quickly get a picture that the perfect solo char just doesn't cut it tanking for the group.

Yes More Potential hits can be good but it needs to be balanced with other things. The Weapons Factor is almost as much of a detriment as it is a boon. Assassination is only good with certain kinds of weapons and not even all of those kinds of weapons. This actually makes any weapon you could get proficiencies in that doesn't fit those criteria useless if your relying on assassination. on Top of this your relying on a number of abilities. Quite a bit of micromanagement and forethought for equipment and ability to use that equipment propperly. As people keep pointing out. the un-modded proficiency table just isn't that great. It's advantage is smaller. But to use a mod to fix it you actually improve quite a number of the normal enemies and increase the ammount of damage your party takes. So in essence you almost backfire against your tanks to use the mod.

You keep pointing out that your idea of how the F/M/T is unstoppable with some things. But when you rely on spells that are level 6 and above. When you finally get these things and how many times you can cast them for a majority of the game really means something.

@UCLA
I aggree with you that the problem of taking magic damage is something that does work against the Barbarian. Luckily with so little equipment needed and so many of the Barbarians advantages innate. There are a lot of equipment slots to help mitigate the problem of the magic damage. That is something I favor because I can tailor the extra equipment to that problem as I desire. Rings of elemental Resistance. Various items that give magic resistance. Certain armour's that give some resistances.

Cloak of Mirrors or Cloak of Reflection. Ring of Fire Protection or Fire Control, Belt of Inertial Barrier, Boots of the North, Ring of Gaxx. Several Amulet's that give different protections. They are all very easy to throw on the Barbarian in the combinations you wish without worrying about messing up the delicate equipment and ability balance of the character doing it's job. With these kinds of items you can actually give yourself some kind of resistance or reduction in damage from most of the kinds of damage in the game. You can even toss some of the very good shields on the character too if you desire to go with less than 2 weapons or forgo a two handed weapon.

What it needs behind it is a couple support characters to break down enemy protections. Heal it if a lot of damage manages to get done and somebody to do the thieving. As a tank it's excellent. I think the thing that truely counts against it is that it's rather devoid of any spell casting.

 

@starwalker

My point was that a FMT will do more physical damage than cleric.

If you use both characters perfectly the FMT will still deal out far more physical damage during all parts of the game.

The time your character has between 1,800,000 XP and 3,750,000 XP is much shorter than the time between 89,000 and 1,800,000 XP.
Before the cleric has reached 1,800,000 XP (level 16) his base thac0 isn't better than 12 and the FMT is far superior.

At 3,750,000 the FMT reaches a big growth in power and his offensive power will still improve afterwards.

But even between the medium period the FMT does more damage.
If you dualwield with your cleric, you get a -2/-6 thac0 penalty.
If you dualwield with your FMT the penalty is only 0/-4, you can take belm or kundane as your off-hand weapon which will give 3.5 attacks/round with your main hand and 1 with your off hand, that's 9 attacks/round with improved haste.

I consider priests as better tanks than FMTs or bards, but because of other reasons.

It's more fun just sending a priest or berserker with weapon,plate, shield and other equipment into battle than micromanaging a FMT for his tanking.

A FMT or bard is unstoppable because of his powerful mage spells, but if you take this consideration further, then you can ask yourself the question:
Why not just take a sorcerer, cast invisibility on the rest of your party and and use those evil spell combinations which make him invulnerable ?

The best tank is the tank who is most fun, and having to cast many spells before or during battles isn't.

A halfling berserker is probably the best tank. With proper equipment 98 percent of the enemies will need a critical to hit, the good saving throws and many HP make it tough to take him down.
For the short time before you get the strength girdle you can use the spell.

A paladin wielding Carsomyr isn't bad either.

 

Unless You've got a mod installed your into ToB by the time you make over 3mil xp. That's something you really need to consider.

The penalty for Dual Wielding only applies if you propperly assign your Proficiencies. Which are going to be a lot farther between even with one of your classes being fighter.

at 89K experience. The Priest and the fighter will have the same base Thac0. Now if you know the game well you can give the fighter a little advantage because you can put profiencies in weapons that you can get early on for a bit of a boost. Also the fighter is likely to have more strength. The levels are close together and so things are going to be slightly in favor of the F/M/T The only point that the Fighter class truely helps make it better overall is at the very beginning and the very end. Where it's few bonuses can add up to more. Fighters just plain don't have enough more attacks if the Priest is going about things right. And the Priest will have better casting ability though not as many damaging spells not to mention it will be better equipped.

At 161K xp. They've all only gone up one level. So the priest is not that far behind and can already cast DuHM to compensate for the tiny gap.

I personally love Priests but just don't seem to play enough of them. They have defensive written all over them and do some great things to the undead but they don't really fit as a tank.

In 2nd Edition Halfing's don't get bonuses for their small size unless you use certain optional rules laid out in supplement books. And when they do Dwarves get them too because Dwarves are not really any bigger.

I think Ultimately from all the talking we've done if I had to choose 2 to say they were truely the best. Considering peformance through the whole game. I'm thinking the Barbarian, the F/M, With these two they cover any holes that the other one has. The F/M can do anything the F/M/T can do really but a whole lot better as well as take advantage of the full power of both their classes without being too much farther behind any of the single classes.

 

Or, better yet, a Barbarian/Mage!

 

Heh. we can't have those.

Otherwise I think that would have won the argument ages ago.

though Igot to say. I would want a Barbarian/Wild Mage. Though a Barbarian/Shapeshifter could be frightening as well. Damage wouldn't be the best but they'd have uber major resistances to just about everything.

 

If you're willing to put Barb into a multiclass then wouldn't fighter/thief be the obvious choice since equipment & hla's would yield 100% resistance and mage's damage avoiding spells be superfluous.

I suppose a Barb/Mage/Thief would also be a nice choice as the mage spells would provide damage avoidance till you reach 100% resist at 5.25m.
15% Barb Innate
25% Adventurewear
20% DoE
40% Hardiness

 

The engine doesn't block it. I believe it has something to do with it's short duration and instantaneous casting. SIiv, for example, blocks True Sight, but not oracle.

On an interesting side note, you can cast PFMW even if you've used an anti-magic scroll.......if you cast it with a scroll, at least. I found this out fighting Kuroisan. I assume it only works if you are casting it from a scroll, but I've never actually checked (too cheesy).

 

Sounds like a bug in the spell for whatever reason.

 

The thing with F/M/T is that it will have the same abilities in what makes a good tank as every single other good tank. So she won't have the hitpoints that even a bard has, but she can have high damage resistance. So she won't have the damage resistance a barb has, but she has protective spells. You can equip her to have those elemental resistancies. This means less spells, but she'll have enough of them to really count. And there's spell protections, which mean 100% protection from magical damage.

Armor class isn't a problem. You can use spell triggers with armor, right? Pack up some spells in a trigger, pack up some armor, and off you go.

So she won't have the same amount of spells as a F/M or even a bard, but soon enough you can equip her with carsomyr, which means 20% less damage resistance, but 50% more magic resistance. With Jansen AdventureWear(tm) she'll still have 65% damage resistance (if I did the math correctly) when combined with Hardiness. More than a F/M and definitely more than a bard. This isn't as great as a barb might have, but she will be able to cast some spells, which will make a huge difference.

It's the right kind of equipment what makes a great tank. Not only on the defence, but on the offence side as well. And no other character can have anything you want your tank to have AND still make a huge amount of damage AND still have protective spells in a trigger, or in a contingency, when needed in a really tough fight.

A bonus side in this is that when you'll be having a great tank, her thieving skills will open up a spot for someone who hasn't got a least bit of thief in them. Right from the very beginning and all the time.

 

Spell Trigger is a level 8 spell. Relying on that as part of your setup and defense won't work in a party. You won't have it until very late in the game. We've already gone through the idea of relying on high level spells and debunked it.

Contingency is level 6. Again it's a good way through the game to be relying on.

the right kind of equipment doesn't matter if you don't start with a good base character.

The F/M/T is not a good base character. It starts out relatively comparable to your support characters but it loses ground to everything else with the slowness that it levels and spends most of the game behind the rest.

You can't backstab with Carsomyr and tank wise Assassination is all that a thief could bring to a table which is still fallable. Using a weapon that removes that then you might as well not have the Thief part of the equation.

Jan's adventure wear gives a bit of damage reduction yes. But it gives absolutely no AC. so it takes up a valuable slot. This means things like No Robe of Vecna for faster spell casting. No +5 Chain which is the best armour in the game for multi-class mages. Also if I'm not mistaken. The F/M can pull off comparable numbers because they can wield the Defender of East Haven as well as hardiness would give the F/M 60%.

F/M's have both better fighting and better spell casting ability.

And this so called Bonus of opening up another spot in your party is hogwash. Your Actually forcing yourself to double up positions including the thief position just to make up for your tanks Crappiness in it until most of the way thorugh the game. Unless you focus on one or two thief skills your abilities at it are going to be crappier than Nalia's. which is saying something for the level of crap that is. To make up for all those other spots until you can get your thief skills built up to be beneficial to the party your going to have to have a second thief filling in all the thief abilities your main character can't do. By the time you make up for the thief so you only need one you might be far enough along to switch out the second thief for Sarevok. But your equipment isn't going to be right to go on Sarevok when you switch the thief out of your party.

Your wonderful Solo Character falls apart in a group. Your talking much more in Solo'ing terms than tanking terms. The Tank doesn't need to do everything. Shouldn't even want to do everything and being capable of doing just about everything hurts it severely as we keep pointing out. Relying on high level spells as part of your strategy doesn't work.

 

That's funny, since I had no problem with this when I started SoA. I had my F/M/T's lockpicking and detect traps in 80% when I started the game and stealth abilities over 60%, which worked fine. Absolutely no need for another thief. Her dex is 20, since I continued from bg1. Didn't allocate to pickpocketing, detect illusions, or traps. These aren't that necessary, so why allocate in them? The stealth has been good enough for my needs.

Currently I'm in chapter 2, Insane difficulty, full party, Slaver's guild done, Planar Sphere done, Unseeing Eye done and Umar Hills done (shadow dragon killed). No other thieves. F/M/T Levels are something like 9/9/11 if I remember correctly and Minsc, who's been with me from the beginning is on level 13 tops. And yes my F/M/T has been tanking, all the time, although as the other members are proficient melee fighters they don't need to cower and flee every time an enemy comes too close. They're all using mainly missile weapons and don't engage in hand-to-hand if it's not absolutely necessary.

The point about Carsomyr is that it's one heck of a weapon, only usable by paladins and thief multiclasses to it's full effect. Having Jan wield it is pretty much pointless. Having a F/M/T wield it is something, since spells can provide much of the protection you need in melee.

I don't rely on high level spells with my strategy. I rely on the fact that my other members are great archers and that even in the beginning of SoA a F/M/T lasts longer in a battle than the NPC's, because of the spells while doing more or at least as much damage than the NPC's. With a barb, you need a mage and a thief in your party. And they don't do as much damage as two fighter-types with bows, and eventually the mage will need some rest, while F/M/T can pack up a plate when her spells run out during the course of adventure. A tank doesn't need to do all of the battle by herself, but when the spells run out by your supporting mage, the barb will have to fight harder to make up for that, while the archers just have to make sure that they have enough arrows, bolts and bullets.

edit: I guess bringing this out is a bit off topic, but I think that to answer 'what's the best tank depends on what kind of party your having as well'.

[ June 06, 2006, 12:57: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

 

How about Fighter/Mage/Cleric (experience cap removed)

Avantages :

Defensively:

- can cast all buffs (armour of faith,PFMW,mirror image, spell imunity, spell trap,resist cold/fire/electricity/acid/fear,chaotic commands,negative plane protection,death ward, ...)
(except the druid only ones)
- can wear shield and helmet and cast all arcane spells
- can cast AC boosting buffs + wear shield - can get very low AC (spirit armour, blur, ...)
- may use tensor transformation for more hitpoints if needed
-can use defender of easthaven (blunt weapon)
-can turn undead (not so well but still)

Offencevely:

-Righteous Magic (Casting Time: 1 round Duration: 1 round/level) ALT.
What it does- enhances the priest's fighting ability by 3 ways: gaining 1
temporary hitpoint per level of priest, gaining 1 temporary point of strength
every 3 level of priest (up to 24), and making the priest inflict maximum
damage with his/her weapon if attack succeeds.
- fighter HLA's aka GW, Hardiness, Critical Strike
- combine 25 str and max damage + 10 atacks per round GW + big two handed staff(only blunt weapons) - huge damage output even against opponents immune to critical hits
-fireshield red+blue+blade barrier+globe of blades
- cleric HLA
- mage HLA (must use patch to enable)
- energy blades, melf's minutes meteors as backup
- (bonus) can breach,can dispell,can wreak elemental havok(firestorm,storm of vengeance,incediary cloud,), contencies spell triggers with both priest and mage spells, can summon, can time stop and harm,haste,invisibility, can find taps, can "knock" locks open, huge ofensive spell arsenal

Disavantages:

- slow to lvl up in 6 man party
- restrcited to blunt weapons(many quality blunt weapons tho)
- cannot put more then 2 stars in any weapon( might as well use shield and wait for GW)
- prety helpless if sucessfuly dispelled(use spell immunity when apropriate)


as u can see decent tanking abilities , great solo
potential

 

@el M: IMO, F/M/C is better than F/M/T for pure tanking, as I mentioned earlier in the thread somewhere...

 

First of all, the best/ideal Tank for me is the character who can resist in the frontline as long as needed,resisting all the enemies attacks and allowing the rest of your party to fight undisturbed if possible.For me his main purpose is the defence.


Best Defence can be attained (in order of importance) with :

1) The ability to avoid completely Physical dmg (Stoneskins,Mirror Image,PfMW).

Here the Arcane spell casters are advantaged.Better if they can be effective offensively too, so Berserker-Mage (13-28.His rage,shield of Harmony and other spells will render him immune to every spell) OR the F/M are the best choices IMHO.
Followed by the Bard,F/M/C,F/M/T etc.


Unfortunately R/C or F/D have only their ironskins and moreover they can't protect them from dispelling effects.But both are the best choices after the arcane spellcasters.


2) Resistance to Physical dmg.

It is difficult to obtain high physical resistance early in the game.Although classes that can have high p.res. later are : Ranger/Cleric, Fighter/Cleric or even the C/T,F/T and of course the Barbarian.

With the R/C being the best choice,since he can have on top of that his ironskins + C.Commands and D.Ward for immunity to many spells.

3) Low AC.

Fighter types can have low AC in the game with their equipment.But the character who can do it better is the Swashbuckler (he can reach even -24 AC at high levels).


- F/M/T vs. F/M (dual or multi)

The Thief class has nothing to offer to a Tank who can already cast Arcane spells IMHO.As a triple class instead,you will be penalized in both your Fighter and Mage abilities (as already mentioned in this topic).So the F/M is better.


- Also I agree that an F/M/C is better than the F/T/M for tanking (see el M's post).


@ Starwalker


My favourite class is the fighter.And I HATE Arcane spell casters.
But unfortunately they can do everything better in this game.

Even if the whole Faerun was a Dead Magic zone (like that of the W.Keep),an F/M would still be more powerful than a pure Fighter, since he can use an uber-powerful weapon like the Staff of the Magi (not to mention wands and spells from scrolls).
Also :

a) Buffing is not a problem for the F/M.And you don't need to prebuff either in most cases.
You will need mainly Mirror Image and Stoneskin and both of them get insta-cast.And you will never run out of them even in the long-duration battles of modded BG.

Are you going to face some mages ? - Cast SI:Abjuration before the battle + Prot.f.Magic Energy.
You will not need to cast PfMW. A F/M has enough M.Images and Stoneskins.

You need to cast a spell in the middle of a battle ? - A F/M can do it undisturbed when he is protected from M.Image.

(only for the high level B-M) Are you tired ? You are running out of spells ? - Click on your Staff of the Magi and start casting Timestop (undisturbed). Trust me, after you finish your 4x Timestop combo there will be no enemy alive on the map


b) Earlier in this topic:

No, actually the Barbarian is the one who needs the equipment and he will never be as an effective tank as the F/M is.Even if the F/M fights naked, he is still more effective as a tank compared to a fully equipped Barbarian.
The same with STATs. The Barbarian is the one who will need them more than the F/M.


And some other points :

- Tenser's Transformation = suicide for a F/M in a difficult battle.You must be very experienced with the game if you want to use it ( f.e. having scrolls,wands,items and needs also a good timing too).If you have a problem with your THACO use potions (STR,Heroism,Power) or C.Strike for the F/M and Timestop for the dual F-M.

- Improved Haste is much better than GWWattacks.
Dual Wielding + Improved Haste = 7 ApR, + 1 ( Gauntlets of Ex.Specialization ) + 2 if you use a weapon that gives an extra ApR in the off-hand.
Also a Berseker-Mage with the True G.Mastery will have +2 more ApR than the F/M.

But Improved Haste's main advantage is that it leaves you free to cast spells,drink potions in the middle of the battle without losing a round, sthg that can be very precious in a difficult fight.
For me the only advantage I see for the GWW attacks is the use of the Ravager +6, but a F/M can do without it.