What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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But what you're forgetting is that the thief class HAS something to offer in F/M/T. It may be a touch extreme, but that's what 85% damage resistance with protection spells and with a weapon like AoU is! You can't have this with a F/M or a bard!

Even as PfMW will allow you to cast 4x Time Stop combos will win any battle there is, we are discussing here about what's the greatest tank. The greatest tank is what can take a tremendous beating, deflect any or at least most of the blows and deal out as much damage as possible. Nothing can take a beating like a barbarian, for the hp and for the damage resistance in the end. Second place is shared by R/C, F/M/C and F/M/T. The first two for Armor of Faith and F/M/T for Jansen AdventureWear.

That's right, but can F/M compete with something that has damage resistance comparable to barbarian's and the same protective spells she has and doesn't lag that much behind in making damage? Let's make it simple: Does a F/M make definitely more melee damage than a F/M/T while tanking and since F/M/T will have 25% more damage resistance, is the melee damage a F/M makes at least 25% more than a F/M/T makes?

 

Why exclude timestop from the debate, a F/M being able to cast it from memory is an advantage over ever other suggested tank so far (except for f/m/t, f/m/c without the cap).

It allows you to completly avoid damage for a short period of time and deal maximum damage, something we've established the tank is required to do.

F/M/T might be able to get greater damage resistance but it seems very pointless to weaken your main character for one piece of equipment. How valuable is 25% more damage resistance when if i play effectively, i won't ever take physical damage because of the mage spells.

 

Problem: PfMW's duration keeps running during a Timestop. I'm actually glad to see a lich cast a Timestop because of this; their protection runs out during their own Timestop spell. Even with modding (I think there's one out there that addresses stopped people's spells expiring), your PfMW duration will continue to run out during your own Timestop.

Anyway, my ranking...
1. - 9. (Barbarian/Mage)
10. F/M
11. Blade
11.5. F/M/T
12. R/C (Ironskins + AoF, DoE, & Hardiness)
13. Barbarian

However, if you're looking for a non-magic tank, the Barbarian clearly pwns.

 

@ Iku-Turso

Yes but the F/M will NOT need physical resistance ever His spells are more than enough to protect him from everything.

If you think that your F/M is missing some ph.resistance then you are doing something wrong.

First of all who said that the F/M needs PfMW to casts Timestop?

I know that Timestop is not sthg that gives an advantage at tanking but I used it as an extreme example of the F/M's power.

Iku-Turso do you realize that a F/M, just with his stoneskins and Mirror Image will not lose a single HP in most battles ???

I repeat someone who can avoid COMPLETELY physical dmg, does NOT need Ph.resistance, items like the DoE, AoF or more Hit Points.

The F/M's power, both offensively (imp.haste) and defensively ,is by far superior to that of the Barbarian (unfortunately)

Read my previous answers.

 

Wohoo! My blade took 11th place.

Anyway, one problem I have with a beserker/mage is that if you DC, you lose the ability to tank for a period of time while you are only a mage. Now of course, you are still useful as a mage, but you just took a very good tank and made it a not very good tank (which hopefully we can all agree a level 1 mage, even with fighter HP, is not a good tank). And if you're an MC... I mean, ShadowKeeper does allow it and I don't think of it as "cheating" but well... it is.

As far as a anything Thief, the advantage of adding a thief class comes at a huge cost to Fighter and Mage levels. So that "extra" 25% damage resistance is going to come at advancing nearly 20% slower (50% of total EXP to 33%). And while there are other advantages, but getting an extra 25% to level a lot slower, is a big cost to me.

 

ok. We proved that you can make a Barbarian Physically resist all damage. Though sadly not get healed for it and your all still saying the barbarian sucks and the F/M is great because the F/M won't take damage.

Am I the only one that finds this inconsistant?

The Barbarian doesn't actually need much in the way of equipment. There are plenty of good armors and nothing taking up the armor slot. Sure he's going to miss out on one or two points of AC compared to a fighter for part the game but that's not a big gap. Easy to make up. Most of the Equipment slots on the character aren't taken up by this or that or the other to make shoring up a hard thing to do. No worrying about the ring of Wizardry so you got two ring slots. No worrying about the robe of Vecna for the quick spell casting. Lots of stuff you can toss on him as you like to make him better. Though I'm sure if we tried we could come up with an ultimate set. Could easily give him 100% cold,fire, and electricity resistance if you chose by the end of the game.


Staff of the Magi is nice. No way in hell I'm denying that. But it's spell like abilities and invisibility are really it's bonuses. It doesn't do that much damage. Though I suppose a F/M can make up for that to some extent.

that's why I made the concession that it's really a tossup. For the Physical minded the Barbarian is tops. for the spell minded it's the F(Berserker)/M.

 

Noone said Barbarians suck.

Its just a logical choice between taking less damage and no damage whatsoever.

I'm not sure how equipment dependant F/Ms really are, as part of a team most of my serious mage gear (vecna, magi staff) goes to the pure mage or imoen. Elven Chain, Amulet of Power & a decent weapon. Thats all my team Fighter/Mage ever really *needs* ...and of course to find the spell scrolls in the first place

All the Barb has going for him is damage resistance so he needs equipment to increase this and items to supplement the gaps in the rage immunities. A good F/M's flaws can easily be filled with the right spells and Lets not forget PFMW doesn't just stop enchanted weapons it blocks the more annoying natural monster attacks (level drain, int drain, slow etc). The Barb might be able to take more of a beating but expect them to be servely weakened... or imprisoned

 

@ UCLAEnigma

You are right on this (though even a pure mage can tank in BG2 ).

I just consider the B-M slightly more powerful than the F/M in high levels.Although a F/M would probably be more useful in a party.


@ Starwalker

Even if we assume that the F/M is more item-dependant than the Barbarian (though it's not true IMO) I can't see it as a handicap for the F/M.

And the Barbarian does not suck.He is one of the best tanks.It's not a problem of the Barbarian if mages are overpowered in BG2.

A F/M will need the SotM only for the first hit

Its dispel/hit ignores SI: Abjuration too.
And along with the 8-hours duration Spell Trap (which is more like a second Cloak of Cheese) and the invisibility/touch,
yes I can say that it's a ...decent weapon which will help all those poor Mages out there

 

But for how long and how long against certain opponents and certain swarms of opponents? That's the point. And let's not forget avoiding physical damage completely is not excluded from F/M/T. Having damage resistance is a backup, when all else fails, when casting spells is not available. Don't tell me that this won't come up with F/M. Of course this depends on how you're playing, like for instance if you rest more often than I intend to.

edit:

Neither will F/M/T. But when they start taking damage F/M/T will take less. On making damage F/M and F/M/T are close enough to be equal. It's the equipment that counts with both of them and they can have the exact same weapons. Having Jansen AdventureWear is a tremendous bonus against enemies that hit every time.

[ June 07, 2006, 15:29: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

 

Hey guys. Its my first time on the board. Personally I think a multi-class f/m is going to be better than a dual class because dual-classed characters don't get the HLA's for their orignal class. The coolest trick I've ever heard of is for a f/m. You cast time stop, then improved alacrity, then you cast all of your fighter HLA's. Just imagine doing a whirlwind attack where every hit is a critical strike. The possibilities are nothing less than absurd. Frankly I think it might be too absurd. As for tanking against mages. The barbarian I have set up is afaiac perfect. He wields Hindo's Doom, the katana from Kouraison (killer), Vailor's helmet, two rings of regeneration, and the belt of initial barrier. He also has two protection from magic scrolls in his quickslot. My favorite thing to do (I only use this when soloing against mages that have imprisonment) is to cast simulcrum then have my clone cast the two pro. magic scrolls on both of us. Then its just a matter of waiting through all the summons and the protections from magic weapons. Eventually you just get to start swinging though. What I like most about this is that he regenerates so quickly that most damage done by a strike is healed by the time someone lands another one.

 

@ Iku Turso

As long as needed.Even in a heavily modded game.

I don't forget it.The F/M/T is almost as good as the F/M is at tanking.I am just saying that I prefer the faster Fighter and Mage advancement over UAI.

Also note that we are not talking about soloing here.Many of the items your F/M/T uses, would be more useful on other party-members.
And wearing Jan's armor means worse AC for the F/M/T (your buffs will resist less),or that you will not be using the Robe of Vecna.

Actually this is what I am trying to tell you

Don't use this argument against a high level Mage.
Because, if he wants, he doesn't need to rest at all .

It's the F/M/T who can't do it without cheating.


@ gatsbygoon


Welcome on the BoM

The advantage of the dual F-M 13-28 (Berserker is better) are the additional spells/day.
+1 Level 6, +2 Level 7,8,9 spells/day

And I think we all know what possibilities has a Mage with these additional spells (too cheesy to even write them down ).
The Fighter's HLAs don't offer much to a F/M.

It would be better to use your 2nd (and last) 9-level spell for another Timestop (assuming that you are Improved hasted)


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- Another oversight of the game in favour of the Arcane spell-casters :

A mage who uses SI,at the same time,can cast on himself spells from the school he chose to be immune from (or at least in some cases).
F.e. SI:Abjuration allows the mage to cast PfMW on himself.

I am disgusted

 

Yuh, well allright. Then it's just mainly a question whether you really dislike F/M/T's slow levelling or if you don't consider it as a problem. I don't.

And as the thief class will bring out more resistancies for F/M/T through items like Carsomyr or Jansen AdvetureWear, it doesn't bring much else into tanking, which wouldn't be covered by other classes abilities or spells.

But what I do like about the F/M/T is that it DOES open up positions in your party for fighter types, since no other mage or thief is actually needed. In my opinion this increases the effectiveness of the party in the long run, but this is however dependant mostly on ones playing style.

But in terms of ultimate tanking, maybe Swashbuckler shouldn't be ignored. When she gets UAI, she'll have plenty what makes a F/M or a Blade a perfect tank, since she can use scrolls. And on top of that, she'll have a great AC.

 

If you outfit him correctly, a sorceror with the robe of Vecna would probably be the best tank. With the amount of protection spells they have and the number of times they can cast them. It gets rediculous. Of course this wouldn't be the case if the game made better use of wizard slayers and allowed them to switch between magical and non-magical weapons. I'm playing a wizard slayer for the first time right now and I love this guy. I cant wait till my first HLA. Just thinking about being able to completely disable a wizard within one round of fighting is making me need a cigarette.

 

Not even then. You can always have your sorcerer use Absolute Immunity instead of PFMW or have him get the "good" rewards in the hell trials. Immunity to +1 and lower weapons combined with PFMW has about the same effect (it's actually more effective) as absolute immunity. If the wizard slayer can't hit the sorcerer he can't disrupt his casting.

 

Normally i just breach enemy spell casters but Can Carsomyr/Staff of Magi/Arrows of Dispelling bring down PFWM?

 

Nope. No hit, no dispel.

 

Yeah, precious few enemies have +6 weapons but still, wizard slayers would be powerful enemies for the hapless level 10-12 mage early in the game. Imagine if instead of being a thief/mage Mae'var were a wizard slayer/thief. He'd turn mages into mincemeat at that point in the game.

 

Wizard Slayer's miscast on hit seems kinda pointless with the majority of spellcasters being weak as a kitten and dying after a few hits from a frontliner.

 

Carsomyr/STaff of Magi/Arrows of Dispelling/Purifier only work on the things that dispel magic works on anyway. They don't dispel everything. It's just that dispel magic gets rid of some of the biggest protections.

 

But does WS's spell disruption work against dragons and demons? If it does, there lies it's ultimate usefulness. Those big baddies might then only waste their time trying to cast spells, which leaves them open for you to take them out.