What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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Skald, hands down. The only one close is the Blade.

Stoneskin + Fire Shield Red + Fire Shield Blue + Contignency Stoneskin 10% + decent offense and defence = unkillable.

EDIT: Oh, and Use Any Items. Add that one, and yeah, I can only see Demogorgon improved able to kill him. Don't forget the Simaclarum helmet.

 

@Drew
Ah damn, i was hoping to have a pure melee character that was phys immune. One of the restored bhaalpowers for the 4th pocket plane test is 25% phys immunity. Would the 'flipped' physical resistance be added to this or not?

@Rutowski
Blades can cast superior spells to the f/m and wield better equipment but what weakens them is their thac0 & number of attacks per round. They are dwarfed by any melee class and the most effective tactics with them seem to rely on cheesy equipment (Valihor's helm) or mislead exploits

EDIT: I was also curious at what point in the game or xp amount we are all thinking of. Some character builds only really come into their own after gaining certain equipment or reaching a critical level.

[ June 14, 2006, 01:05: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

 

If everyone would reread my post they would clearly see that a tank does not require magical equipment or spells to protect them. A tank requires only their physical abilities. To give you the best example why not use a level one character to compare a true tank.

A Half-Orc Barbar will begin the game with 17 HP where as a F/M would begin the game with no more than 10 hit points. Without armor both classes can obtain an AC of 6 with a dexterity of 18. Now we can equipped them with regular non-magical armor. After being equipped with non-magical armors the only difference here is the barbarian is restrict to what he or she can wear and that isn't too big of a problem since he has 17HP. The F/M has to make a decision on what he or she wants to wear for armor if any at all. If the F/M does put the armor on they can't use their spells, but if they don't chances are their spell selected would be armor. That would give the F/M that same AC that a barbarian would achieve using non-magical equipment, scale mail. So both F/M and Barbarian now have the same AC but the Barbarian has 7 extra HP. Both Barbarian and F/M can only be specialized but the Half-Orc Barbarian can obtain a 19 and not worry about rolling 18/51+. This gives the Half-Orc Barbarian the edge. Now lets go toe to toe. Simple the Half-Orc Barbarian would have the greater chance of survive given his higher HP. As time goes on both characters will grow stronger and as we all know mages tend to be more power than their warrior counterparts at higher leves, eventually the F/M will make a better overall character, but he will have 50+ less HP and no natural resistance.

To me any time you have to cast a spell for protection or use a special ability button that character does not classify as a true tank. A Barbarian can go into battle without his rage or magic an can come out alive, but a F/M stands little or no chance without his or her magic. 50 HP can make a difference when you have no magical protection and so does natural resistance. Even without the natural resistance the Barbarian still stand a better chance of survival given their higher HP.

To boot if you do use a Half-Orc Barbarian from the BG1 you can obtain a very good rate of regenaration not using any magical equipment. This of course is only another added benefit to the Half-Orc Barbarian arguement.

Now of course if you want to say what is the best tank, I am going to throw one out there that hasn't been brought up yet and that is a Half-Orc C/T. He has decent fighting ability, decent HP, spell buffs, can wear any armor and can use some of the better weapons in the game. Once the C/T obtain UAI he can use any equipment in the game. To me this character has huge protential.

 

@Abdel
You're argument is pointless, deciding who is the best tank isn't about whether someone has the best innate abilities or would kick ass when naked or in basic gear. Its not as if these guys are tanking straight out of Candlekeep because BG1 is completable with just missile weapons & summoning wands. No tank needed, so lets keep the low level examples to the minimum.

A tank is generally someone who you dump all of your best equipment on, someone that gets buffed to the nth degree if only by the party's mages & clerics. Someone that can draw all enemy fire and dish out more damage than they can take.

The arguments for barbarians seem more to be appealing to the lazy player. 'Oh well theyve got more hps and damage resistance so all you got to do is have them stand there'

 

Yes, it would stack......but you don't really need it. Having played an oversight monk with Tactics and Ascension installed on insane, I can assure you that 78% damage resistance is more than adequate to get the job done with a good party and decent tactics.

 

I read your post. And what I think you meant to say was "If everyone would reread my post they would clearly see that IT IS MY OPINION a tank does not require magical equipment or spells to protect them."

Anyway, who cares what a level 1 character could do in a game that will never have level 1 characters? Even worse, in your level 1 barbarian vs a level 1 F/M... as we add EXP the advantage in the fight is going to go towards the F/M.

I fail to see how a barbarian at any level with regular equipment can tank against many creatures without spells. And frankly, I think that the argument that you would is ridiculous. While you may want a tank that requires a minimal number of spells, ok. However, you would not attack a vampire without NPP or Fire Giants without some Protection from Fire for example. So the fact that you think that a good tank is one that requires no spells to tank is irrelevant to the consideration for what the best tank is.

 

@Enigma: While I see your point, I feel compelled to point out that the NPP thing was kind of a bad example. The Barbarian's rage takes care of that......and lasts a round longer than NPP, too.

 

@Drew

That's Abdel's quote.

 

^Come on. Try that quote in my modded game. Feel the wrath of Improved Fire Giants for instance. A barbarian with no magic back-up will be toasted pretty easily I guess.

Or try Improved Bodhi. Without rage, your barbarian will be dead in one round when toe to toe with Bodhi, as she has four attacks per round, and drains five levels per touch. She also has the THAC0 of a 25th lvl fighter with 23 STR, so AC is rather useless.

 

Pseudospawn, the thing about tanks isn't to make many attacks, it's to take damage good. Stoneskin, fireshields, Use All Items, mislead, simaclarum, they all help out with that, while still giving a good damage output.

 

Mainly what it comes down to in my case is that I hate mages with the utmost passion. I hate using them and avoid it anytime I can, furthermore, nothing gives me more satisfaction than seeing one of them turn into bloody chunks on the edge of my sword (although I could say the same about my boss, I HATE THAT WOMAN!)

 

Well then you'd hate mine, I'd personly go with a conjurer with some nice metaspell stuff, some protection from evil, some other stuff that decreases spell casting time, and finillay Improved Alacrity spell. Might kill a few to many people you don't want dead...

 

@ gatsbygoon

I completely agree about mages. I hate them. I recently played a "Every character must cast mage spells from the wizard spell book" and while I learned more about casting, I hated it (and much more enjoy my "The Strongest" party where I take whatever party member has the highest strength).

 

I just think it's rediculous that protection from magic weapons is a sixth level spell that is cast instantly and lasts four rounds. It should be level nine if it has those kinds of specs. I think that spell is way overpowered. If it were going to be a sixth level spell it should last two rounds and have a casting time of 3-4. Stoneskin by itself isn't overpowered but combined with pro.magic weapons its just OH MY GOD. Anyway, thinking about this I think I just got an idea for the perfect magic combatant. A wizard slayer dualed to a thief after he has the right proficiencies. After I finish leveling my latest barbarian that's the next project.

 

There's one thing about F/M/T probably worth mentioning.

That's protection spells, Improved haste, Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, Kundane/Belm, and Scarlet Ninja-To with Assasination!

It might not work against every single enemy, but oh-boy, on those that it works it's whirling blades of pure destruction!

And still think that the thief class has nothing to give into tanking?

 

@Rutkowski

Although I agree that a tank's main purpose should be the good defense,it is better if your tank at the same time can be effective offensively.
He is afterall always in the frontline in direct contact with the enemy.


@Iku-Turso


You can't backstab with the Scarlet,so no Assassination with it.

 

Not really a big deal if you are using it in the offhand. An improved hasted F/M/T using scarlet in his off hand will still succesfully backstab on 8 of his 9 attacks.

 

Primarily, a good tank has to be able to withstand physical attacks. While a low AC and physical resistances are nice, no doubt, I had much better results by using spells like Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, Mirror Image and so on for protection. So, according to my personal playing style the perfect tank has to able to cast arcane spells.

Furthermore, I want a decent tank to be (almost) immune to magic as well. To achieve a very high MR, the thief-HLA "Use any item" is needed. The only classes which combine arcane spellcasting, solid fighting skills and UAI are the F/M/T and the Blade.

While I am perfectly aware that the Blade has some avid followers in this forum, I still believe that the F/M/T is the much more versatile and solid tank in case you refrain from using some rather cheesy exploits.

At the end of SOA the F/M/T can obtain 95% magic resistance, while being able to cast spells - or 105% in case he uses armor. If you count the Cloak of Balduran as legal item, that is.

Well, as was said before, damage dealing isn't the main purpose of a tank, but hey, the F/M/T combines rock-solid protection against physical attack and about 100% MR with 10 attacks per round with permanent 25 STR (without Crom Faeyr) which may be combined with the Assassination-HLA. At least in my opinion the best legit tank.

[ June 16, 2006, 05:28: Message edited by: Ascendency-Down ]

 

The Absolute-Number One-Can't get around it problem with a F/M/T is that you are advancing nearly 20% slower than a F/M and 66% slower than a Blade in levels.

While you'll get your first HLA at about the same time, you're getting a significantly nerfed character most of the game. The thief part of the class adds 0 before UAI/Assassination.

Additionally, how is the F/M/T a better tank than a Blade? A Blade can get pretty good armor that allows spell casting very early and will the same spells at or before a F/M/T would (PfMW a Blade would get earlier). As Felinoid pointed out earlier, a Blade would have better HP and could equip exactly the same items.

He gives up Specialization (+1/2 attacks; but get's +1 from Offensive Spin) and THAC0. I think he loses level 8 spells (none of which other than Mantle [crapola]) but none are important. Your character gains Assasination... great. So your next 10 attacks are instant-kills (or there about). I would exchange that (given that it doesn't effect many enemies and you can only do it once per day) with a longer spell duration and higher casting level which helps a Blade survive longer.

 

UCLA, he also loses an attack after reaching Fighter level 13