Which weapons?

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L4 wizard spell Spirit Armor gives +6 armor AC, allows unlimited dex bonus, and doesn't interfere with monk wis AC bonus, unlike normal armor (It also works with wild shapes if you cast it AFTER shapeshifting, which makes the wild shapes much more practical for combat than they appear at first). With this buff, it's easy for a cleric with a single monk level to beat a heavily armored cleric's AC.

A normal full plate gives +8 armor AC and allows 2 dex AC. The full plate +1 you can buy in Khuldahar gives +9 armor AC and allows 1 dex AC. The Mithral Full Plate you get from an enemy in the last chapter gives +10 armor AC and allows 2 dex AC. A large shield gives +2 shield AC, and the best shield gives +4 shield AC. For the first 2/3 of the game, the cleric will have a +1 large shield for 3 AC, with the +2 large shield buyable in Khuldahar (I think. Might've been the Underdark, which would be sooner by a chapter).

The AC advantage so far in favor of heavy armor is
At worst, (8+2)-6=4 (1/4 weight full plate and large shield)
At best, (10+4)-6=8 (Mithral Full Plate and large shield+2)

The monk hybrid will need to beat the above using wis AC bonus and dex AC bonus that's above 2 (for dex bonus equal to or below 2, the two have the same bonus, so the heavy armor cleric will never have a dex AC bonus advantage over the monk hybrid). In the first case, it's easy. A cleric with 18 wis will do. For the second case, a cleric with, say, 20 wis and wearing Every God's Ring will only need 16 total dex to tie. Tying or beating a heavy armor cleric's AC is childishly simple if you use a Dreadmaster and not too difficult with other domains. Of course, this whole setup hinges on Spirit Armor, so it's foolish to take the monk level before someone can use it (unless this is also a high dex decoy, in which case the evasion alone should be worth it).

The primary difference between the monk hybrid and a full cleric is evasion, better saves, better footspeed, and better damage vs. having higher level spells a level sooner (which is actually much more powerful than any single item in favor of the monk hybrid until the mid-teens). The full cleric's AC advantage is vanishingly small against a mid-low wis monk hybrid and actually loses (again by a pretty small margin) compared to a high wis cleric. I purposely chose a cleric build without too much str in the above calculations to show that the additional str benefit of a 2 hand weapon doesn't necessarily prevent the cleric from casting well.

If you are not powergaming, then the whole thread is irrelevant. If you are, why settle for a cleric that just sits in the back with heavy armor and swing at a few stray enemies with a weak mace when he can dish out much higher damage in the front lines? The difference, as you see, is quite large even against enemies that do not resist bludgeoning damage.

 

Ye, it's not just about finding the armor with "best" armor value, it's about noticing that such values are easily exceeded by just a single buff spell.

Please note that adding that single monk level nets you the Martial Weapon: Axe feat (!!!), not to mention getting your priest tank use Thunder Clap (from Kuldahar) for +1 attack per round. That easily removes the gap vs. pure melee warriors in terms of attacks per round - yet another reason why pure melee guys don't make the cut when taking things into extremes.

 

crucis, Strong Back is a bad choice for a mage who needs every feat he can get. Use Bull's Strength (there are even several wands available) or a +2 Str item.

Feats for divine casters: Well, they want Combat Casting, especially in HoF. You're right that the other casting feats don't do much for them. You could boost up Fire Storm, but that isn't very exciting compared to the sorc damage spells.


Mokana, massive halberd of hate does "only" 2d8+4. And who says the cleric is going to get to use it? The fighter might have dibs. And, rather than comparing it to a vanilla +5 mace, consider the hellbolter firing Corrosive Bolts +1. Or Or Belib's Everlasting Torch.

If you're going to mention random drops like the Massive Greataxe of Flame, at least compare them to the Morningstar of Glory or the Club of Freezing Flames +5. (better is to ignore them all entirely, as the top-end random drops seem to be quite rare)

You examples pump STR through the roof to take advantage of the 1.5x STR bonus for a two-handed weapon. Rather strange to assume that Champion's Strength will always give the maximum +8 bonus. Nice of the cleric to put 16 in STR; did he sacrifice DEX or CON to accomplish this?


You're right about the AC issue.

Even a level three character can easily have 24 Dex, for a +7 bonus. We need to take Max Dex Bonus in account when evaluating armors, and it turns out that there is only one physical armor in the game which can equal Spirit Armor spell: Chain of Drakkas, +7 armor bonus, no max dex bonus. This is found very late in normal mode, so for almost the entire game a normal mode party will not have access to it. The HoF version has +8 armor, and is likewise found very late in HoF.

This situation comes about because the designers chose not to include highly enchanted heavy armor in IWD2. For example, consider Mithral Field Plate Armor +2. It gives a +10 armor bonus, and has a max dex bonus of +2 -- inferior to the Spirit Armor + 24 Dex combo. But a +5 version of this armor would have a +13 armor bonus; our Spirit Armor character needs 28 Dex just to equal it.

Similarly, a level one monk can easily have 20 Wis, for a +5 bonus. The only shield which equals this is "The Death Adder's Dragon-Shield", which I am not sure is even findable. So a shield that gives +4 AC is the best you can reasonably hope for. But if they had included a +5 tower shield, it would give +7 AC. This is still inferior to a good high-level WIS bonus, but at least much closer.

So, unfortunate as it may be, the best AC characters are the naked ones. There are a few drawbacks though. For one, this requires massive investment in Dex and Wis, thus reducing the points available for Con (HP are important even when you have good AC), Int (need 13 to get the +5 AC bonus from Expertise), and Str (encumberance). Furthermore, you must be careful to keep the Spirit Armor buff up at all times; the duration is only 5r/level.

 

I guess that we'll have to agree to disagree. If you can barely carry your own weight, you won't be able to make good use of your inventory slots, whether in your "backpack" or the items that you wear or use. Bull's Strength is only a temporary fix and +2 STR aren't available immediately. Besides, you're more likely to want to give STR enhancing items to your tanks first.

I'll agree that there are "better" feats to take, but being wretchedly weak is a serious hindrance for a party member and moreso in smaller parties, where the number of backpack slots for the party is correspondingly lower. That said, it's less of a problem for a wizard to use a slot on Strong Back than a Sorceror, since Wizzies actually get more than the standard 1 feat per 4 levels.

I think that one could argue that if you want to avoid the "need" for taking the Strong Back feat, then you need to build your make with a mildly decent STR so that carrying capacity is less of an issue. A STR of 12 is probably more than enough to alleviate any capacity issues.

Yes, Combat Casting is a given, for any serious spellcaster, divine or arcane. I think that if you have a Morninglord of Lathander and tend to make heavy use of their fire-based spells, then taking Spirit of Flame is worth the cost. And the enchantment spell focus feats are worth taking if you like to cast some of the useful divine enchantment spells that require Will saves.

I suppose that you could also consider taking the Evocation spell focuses to help out with the fire based spells to reduce the chance of saves, but I'm not really all that sure that they'd be as commonly useful as feats like Improved Critical, Dash, etc. I be honest, this might also be true for arcane spellcasters. Enchantment spells live or die by the saving throw, but evocation spells tend to do half damage even when you fail the save. Thus, I believe that you get more bang for the buck from taking the enchantment SF's, assuming that you use such spells at all.

 

Bull's Strength lasts 1h/level; when you first get it, it may only be a temporary fix, but pretty soon the duration is long enough to make it permanent.

Most STR enhancing items are useless to warriors, because they give less than Bull's Strength. So might as well give them to your low-STR caster. +2 STR gives about the same benefit as Strong Back.

 

Given the buff constants and weapon constants, [d/dstr](massive_halberd_dmg/mace+5_dmg)=K(5.25/21.5+str)^2, where K is the the crit modifier of the halberd over that of the mace, and str is strength modifier. 21.5^2 is over 400, and str positive. The increase in this ratio is about 1% per increase in str modifier. I could've assumed any allowed str value in the game and still come to the same conclusion. Hence, any snide remarks concerning stat distribution on your part is irrelevant.

Oh, I'm so glad you insisted that I calculate damage accounting for random items. It gives me an excuse to write out explicitly just how superior the Massive Greataxe of Flame +5 and Massive Halberd of Hate+4 are to other weapons--as Jukka wrote in his FAQ.

Once again, I'm assuming a total str of 24 for a +7 str modifier. We have the following direct damage increase buffs:
+5 from Power Attack
+2 from Emotion: Hope
+1 from Prayer
+4 from Holy Power
For a total of +12 raw damage

Since we are taking into account random items, we have 2 copies of Tymora's Loop, which gives +6 luck. With the Luck buff and the L5 Bard song, we have a total of +8 luck. We also have the Executioner's Eye buff, which increases crt threat range by 4. We have a total of +12 to crt threat range.

Massive Halberd of Hate +4
Average normal damage: 12+7*1.5+10+4=37.5
Crt modifier: (0+1*5+3*14)/20=2.35
Average damage/attack: 88.125
Average dmg/atk (w/ added damage): 97.625

Morningstar of Glory:
Average normal damage: 12+7+8=27
Crt modifier: (0+1*5+2*14)/20=1.65
Average damage/attack: 44.55
Average dmg/atk (w/ added damage): 55.05

Club of Freezing Flames+5:
Average normal damage: 12+7+6+5=30
Crt modifier: (0+1*6+2*13)/20=1.6
Average damage/attack: 48
Average dmg/atk (w/ added damage): 64.2

This example is mostly an exercise in theory, but it does illustrates two major problems with your damage strategy.

1. You rely on added damage. Added damage cannot crt and is not subject to luck modifiers. They count as separate damage sources from the main damage, which is nice if the enemy is weak to the added damage but tends to render both part of the damage worthless against a resistant enemy, since most weapons with added damage--except the aforementioned Massive weapons, the Holy Avenger, and the Greatsword of the Soulless+5--sacrifice base damage and/or enchantment for added damage. Take, for example, your vaunted Belib's Everlasting Torch. Its average normal damage, taking into account the fire bonus, is only 2.1 higher than that of the "vanilla" mace +5 and actually loses out compared to the EE buffed mace +5 damage.

2. The average damage of a 2x crit weapon with 2 crit threat range ties that of a 3x crit weapon with 1 crit threat range (sword vs. axes, for example), but as crt threat range increases, damage leans in favor of the weapon with higher crit multiplier. Maces not only have lower crit modifier compared to axes and halberds but also the same crit threat range.

 

@Mokona=Modoki

Perhaps you need a bit of a maths lesson...

...12+10.5+14 = 36.5

On my machine, the Massive Halberd of Hate +4 does 2D8+4 damage and does NOT have a critical width of 19-20. As a result, your figures are (even more) incorrect for me:

Average normal damage: 12+(7*1.5)+(8*2)+4 = 42.5
Average damage/attack: 2.2*42.5 = 93.5

Apart from this nickpicking, your explanations are sound.

 

There was also the crt modifier error calculations, which includes a crt miss component that shouldn't exist with the luck mods. Corrected multipliers are
2.3 for the Massive Halberd of Hate +4
1.7 for the Morningstar of Glory
1.65 for the Club of Freezing Flames +5

Speaking of incorrect item descriptions, the Morningstar of Glory has an enchantment of 1, not 5.