Will This Be the Year I Like Soccer?

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Sorry what example specifically?

 

Aldeth has clearly explained that there are more ups and downs in NFL than there are in English soccer. Why are you English soccer fans not listening to him and continuing to insist that promotion/relegation is the one true faith?

 

Let's just say that the two are different and leave it there.. like everyone but you has tried to do.

 

This one: (I guess I'll quote myself - how arrogant)

And to expand a bit on this point, it is not uncommon for a team that makes it to the Super Bowl one year to not even qualify for the playoffs the following year. I cannot use this year's Super Bowl qualifiers as an example, as they have yet to play the next season, but in the 2007 season, the Patriots and Giants played in the Super Bowl, but the Patriots did not make the playoffs in 2008. In the 2006 season, the Colts and the Bears played in the Super Bowl, but the Bears did not make the playoffs in 2007. This is far more common than not - that at least one of the Super Bowl contenders not only do not make it back to the Super Bowl, but don't even play well enough to qualify for a playoff entry.

 

promotion and relegation is part of a whole system. If soccer had a draft system the strength of teams would be kept up. A bad team in the highest level is as good as the best in the second ranking.

Look at it this way. Would it be possible for any other american football team to replace a nfl team in the draw? If a second competition just under the nfl is absent, the draft system works best.

 

The last time I looked, I wasn't the only one posting in this thread. You can leave it there if you like, but if other people want to post, then we will.

 

Currently no, but if history is to be our guide, then the answer is yes. In the 1960s, there were two professional football leagues, the NFL and the AFL. At first they did not play each other, and crowned their own champion. Eventually, the two champions played in the first "Super Bowl". However, the talent in the leagues got about equal, so in 1970 they merged to form the NFL as we know it today.

 

More good points from Aldeth! I'm certainly learning a few things about American sport that I did not know before.

 

No.. you're not.. but that's not what I said, is it? Everyone else here has shown the ability to see both sides of the argument and concede ground. You've taken a confrontational stance a certain way and just stuck with it, without seeing both sides.

 

Edit: this is mainly a response to Aldeths post

The point I was making is the league has fixed teams whose position is never in threat. You have made the point that to some extent they do experience 'highs and lows', which I will get to in a sec. This has nothing to do with what I said about the american system being designed with a more entertainment orientated focus. I.e no relegations because we want to sell people what they want to see.

You have demonstrated to an extent that the fortunes of american clubs can differ, I accept that, but surely you can see that the scale of such swings and the cost of failure is minute in comparison to the European system. Teams are given £60 million in tv money alone for reaching the English premier league, similarly a drop from the championship to league one can have huge long term implications for a club. Take a look at Leeds United. The american system is simply "we may challenge this season for the title or we may not", ofcourse it hurts for a dominant club to fall from grace, but this fall has a safety net. There is no such safety net in Europe, which in my opinion makes the game more exciting and breeds incredible loyalty and rivalries among the fans, I mean who wants to be playing Chesterfield on a rainy Sunday morning?

 

Good point Duffin, take leeds and nottingham forest as great examples of the highs and lows, no american team in any sport can relate to what has happened to those two and if we are really lucky newcastle as well

 

Clearly you're not showing any ability to see my side of the argument because you're too busy telling me to leave it alone, rather than engaging in the interesting debate we're having.

Can we get back to the topic please, Barmy?

My (and Aldeth's) point is still that the whole relegation thing only impacts a handful of teams each year and there are some teams that are never impacted, whereas in American sport, every team is subject to the lows and highs of performance.

 

And that is the crux of the argument! How many times has Manchester United been relegated to a lower level? Last time was 1974. Chelsea, 1988. Liverpool, '54. And Arsenal 1913. Seems like pretty stable teams to me there. If your top teams are never at risk of being relegated, how is your argument (this is pointed at Duffin and crowley, not you HB, no worries ) valid? Sure, a few teams get sent up and down every year, but they rarely have the chance to win any cups, right?

Regardless of that, why can't the NFL be an analogy to your relegation system? Placing dead last is like being relegated because you lose ticket sales, overall revenue, and the chance for big name players to sign with you. Once you build yourself back up, you can place first or second (like being promoted) and benefits come with it. Can we not be as devoted to our teams simply because they don't switch leagues? Is hoping our team will finally be good enough to win 11 games and make it into the playoffs and being devastated if they don't not the same as hoping your soccer team plays well enough not to be relegated, and then being devastated if they are?

It's like comparing a peach to a nectarine; they look slightly different, but both deliver the satisfyingly sweet summer flavor you expect. Unless they're rotten, in which case you relegate them to the compost bin.

 

The reason that the NFL and most American sports teams don't due a tiered system like Europe is because all of the best players are in the top professional league. Furthermore, they are spread out through draft and a free agency controlled by a salary cap which encourages each team to be competitive. If even the worse NFL team (let's take the Lions who didn't win a game last year) played a team from any professional league other than NFL they would absolutely obliterate them. Can't have a tiered system with that.

By no means am I saying it's better this way, but I luike it more, maybe because I'm used to it.

 

I agree with everything Saber just said.

 

Yes but why 'would' the top teams get relegated? Man Utd weren't suddenly a world brand overnight. It took many, many years of hard work and good management, on and off the pitch, for them to make themselves safe from relegation. If you start then handicapping them.. it's hinering progress that they've achieved on their own. It's a bit like saying Usain Bolt can only run on 1 leg at the next Olympics, to give the others a chance...

Big 'fall-from-graces' can happen, but it would need some cataclysmically stupid mistake, or a change of hands at the chairman/board level for this to happen. Once a team gets relegated to the next division down, it becomes very difficult for them to get out and go back up because they miss out in million ££££ worth of TV money. This has created a league structure that's formed over many years, so it's not simply a case of what you do ON the field, it's a lot about what happens off it. Superb management and business skills are essential, because relegation for your team is a MAJOR set-back. I know I cried my eyes out when my team was finally relegated a few years back (we'd fought againgst it for years). However, it is possible to get back up, just very difficult. Teams in the lower echelons fight tooth and nail to try and go back up to the next level, and the teams are more or less even down there. This is why a lot of fans prefer lower league football because there's more battling going on. Promotions and relegations are such emotional highs, because they're so hard to achieve, and so debillitating when they happen, respectively. If you get relegated, it's not just a case of 'oh well, next year we'll get the first draft pick, so there's a world class player handed to us'. You have to earn everything you get.

Again, this is NOT a 'football is better that gridiron' post so there's no need to jump on it. I can see that we're never going to agree a great deal.

 

Do we think that Aldeth will ever be able to get into watching USA play in the World Cup?

 

There are probably between 4 and 7 or 8 teams that are safe, any of the other teams could conceivably go down. In the lower divisions even less teams are safe. Who would have thought newcastle and middlesborough would do down at the start of the season. Leeds, Forest, Southampton, West ham, etc etc etc. The fact is almost every few years a big club with a big history goes down.

This is exactly what I am getting at. Such a relationship between club and supporter would not exist in the US. I'm not saying you wouldnt be upset if your team didnt win the league, but not winning the league is MASSIVELY different from relegation. In any league in England the battle for the title is only a part of the season, there is as much interest in the relegation battle and the european spots. In america there must be so many games with nothing on them when it is clear neither side can possibly win the title. Can you seriously argue that this might not hinder the amount of fans and the level of their fanaticism of soccer?

I can't see any reason Aldeth wont get into watching the World Cup, provided the US play okay.

Some final points.
1 - are you denying that the swing of promotion to relegation is not hugely wider and more important than simply winning the league or not?

2 - are you denying that the lack of this whole dimension of football, which makes ALL games throughout the season have something important riding on them does not negatively effect the popularity of American soccer?

Also I don't really know where to post this so I guess I'll do it here as those who are most likely to know Sir Bobby will be reading this thread. RIP Sir Bobby you are a great man and a true gentleman, forever a legend.

 

Bobby Robson - a true football legen and a total gentleman. One of my lifetime heros - a sad day....

 

The tiered relegation system sure gives an extra edge to European football (and pretty much all team sports around here). Some sports have tried closed leagues and the big European football clubs are constantly working to achieve something similar to what they have in the states simply because the risk of just one abysmal season is so great even for the greatest teams.

What I like the most with our system is that pretty much all footballers play in the same competition, the same system. The local neighbourhood team could theoritically play against Real Madrid in a competitive game if they somehow managed to go through all the cups and small teams with excellent organisation can go all the way to the highest leagues just as big teams with crap organisation can plummet through the system. It is all connected. Sure it is getting more and more divided with the very best teams getting further and further ahead but in theory Man U, Barcelona and Inter is playing in the same competition as the fellas practicing twice a week on the local school pitch.

Also, if you have any sense of nationalism and is an American (which includes pretty much all of you) you really should follow your national soccer team. They truly embodies the things most Americans like to think their country is about. Hard work, great heart, never give up and an attitude that believes that anything is possible.