Wisconsin Gov. Walker Threatens To Deploy National Guard Against Unions

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Wow, reading this thread as a teacher it seems like I should move to the states. Teachers and other public employees must have it wonderful there if politicians have been bribing them for decades with high salaries and lavish work conditions. Wish it was like this here. Holding the politicans by the neck and getting everything I wanted, how wonderful. Imma comin' yanks!

 

joa,
you are seriously suggesting that there may be a degree of exaggeration (and the usual envy and bias) involved in the description of how good public sector employees have it in the blessed US of A, where milk and honey flows - as long as you're in a union, and on the government dole, wasting tax payer dollars and dwell in lavish entitlement - whereas ordinary hard working Americans earn their living by the sweat of their brows in the harsh environment of the Private Sector, producing something of value?

You have a point.

I vividly recall the blatant and malicious envy my dad faced - being civil servant for life - from his sister-in-law's brother, who also worked in the public service but only made it to ordinary employee.

Or the very common resentment against civil servants in general. My father was transferred 20 times throughput the state we live in during his career, and accepted that despite the hardship. Then there were the cuts and general promotion stops for several years. Try that with a private sector employee. But right, they're all a bunch of free loaders in the public sector.

 

One small point on being a unionized teacher (my wife is one, btw) - while the salaries aren't lavish I will point out that a typical teacher in a public school does in fact make more money than that teacher would receive in a private school. It's the only work situation I'm familiar with that works that way. Usually you get more money in the private sector. I suspect the reason this is the case is because public teachers are typically unionized, while private teachers often are not.

 

Sometimes unions, like all institutions, get tangled in red tape and end up being forced into really awkward positions. A quick case to illustrate this -- this actually happened.

In a small Alberta town called Eckville (I kid you not), it came out that a Social Studies teacher named Jim Keegstra was teaching that the Holocaust is a hoax. Needless to say, this was not on the Alberta curriculum. The guy was a grade a douche, no question about it, yet the Alberta Teacher's Association paid for his lawyer, not because they agreed with his douchiness, but because he was a paying member, and when a paying member gets into trouble, the Association is required to provide a defense. Understandable, but it really made the association look bad defending a guy like that.

In a more general sense, it is difficult to force out a lousy worker if said worker is unionized. That makes good workers everywhere somewhat frustrated with unions, as well as good managers who want to work with good workers. I think that the few rotten apples spoil the barrel in cases like this, and that results in the hostility Ragusa described was directed at his father, and in the latent hostility displayed by BTA towards teachers in his state.

On that note, I have to say, you couldn't pay me enough to come and teach in a public school in CA -- or anywhere in the US, for that matter. Too dangerous, too many gangs, too little societal support for reasonable discipline and standards.

 

That's an incredible pension plan! MD teachers receive 30% of their final salary as pension, so unless CA teachers are making in excess of $300K per year, that's a hefty package indeed.

 

BTA,
I searched a bit about because the numbers appeared remarkable, and found this.

Apparently, the radio folks use the term 'teacher' broadly. The first name on the list, Daniel M. Isaacs, was COO of the Los Angeles Unified School District. That's something other than a teacher. It is also exceedingly likely that the other folks on the list also are not teachers but senior administrators.

The organisation appears to be large-ish, and I feel tempted to ask what a private sector person in a comparable position of responsibility would make.

Take it with that proverbial grain of salt.

 

Wow. Amazing protest by state workers:



I guess the national guard is on "stand-by" somewhere. Power to the people.

 

From the Rash: Teachers are parasites, and union workers part of an 'anti-democracy' movement. Questions?

 

I think the "threat" of the national guard is a little misleading. I was watching on the news and the governor is talking about using the national guard to keep the state running. He isn't planning on using the national guard to hunt down and kill striking union workers.

I felt the need for this clarification

 

Using the national guard to keep the state running is a broad term.

First, the National Guard is a blunt instrument which provides first of all ready (armed) manpower. That he would use them to, say, run water facilities or the like is implausible since that requires specialised set of skills that the soldiers in the guard likely don't have. It is more likely that it will be about having them enable or enforce the use of strike breakers.

Second, the use the National Guard to, say, prevent strikers from picketing or blocking entrances, common practices during strikes, might easily involve use of force, and in that light I don't find this clarification really dispels concerns.

 

Neither do I. Ragusa's right. The National Guard, as a whole, have one skillset, and it's not one that is useful in most public service jobs. They won't be manning water facilities, or sewage facilities, or serving as clerks, or teachers, or whatnot. They'll be enforcing order, with something of an emphasis on 'force'. That presumes that someone tries to disrupt order.

 

NOG,
I cherish these rare, calm moments of agreement.

 

I admit, I'm finding the entire Wisconsin situation fascinating. It looks like their deficit is 2.7 Billion and they have 5.6M people in the state or roughly $500/person in the state. It is really playing into the GOP's hands as Wisconsin doesn't have all of the "fat cats" that the Democrats always want to demonize when it comes to spending cuts and tax increases. They don't have a military to cut, and they can't blame Wall Street, or the drug companies, or the oil companies, etc. etc.

Basically they have two choices, raise taxes or cut expenditures which directly effect the citizenry. Since it looks like the Governor will not raise taxes they are going hard core against spending. I'm assuming the Governor will eventually get his way as I believe the Legislature is also GOP. Then the real experiment will begin. Will the GOP and Independents be able to accept the loss of services and the real "harm" they will suffer due to the cuts. The next election cycle will be very interesting to see for if the electorate throws them all out as the "pain will be too much or if the electorate will accept that what was done needed to be done and move on. I think that Wisconsin will be a litmus test for what will happen in other states and possibly even at the federal level.

 

They are - many newly minted ones from the last election cycle.

The GOP is in a bit of a Catch 22 here. Most economists believe that the main short term effect of a reduction in government spending is job loss, and unemployment is one of the biggest voter issues right now. They need a balance here. If economy tanks, and unemployment goes up, they're in trouble. But if they don't take this action, then it seems like their flip flopping. I don't know what to expect.

 

Maybe I'm a jerk at heart, but I don't have a problem with the use of the National Guard to keep order at picketing sites, assuming that all they are doing is keeping order. I'll elaborate:

If the union at Happy Time Widget Factory goes on strike, it would be really bad politics (and labour relations) to arbitrarily force them back to work unless there's a dire emergency that requires widgets. But (depending on the labour laws of the state) the employer has a right to hire replacement workers (scabs!) Now, I suppose that the picketing union workers have a right to yell insults at the scabs as they drive into the Happy Time parking lot, but they don't have the right to block the entrance, or to assault the scabs, or to destroy the property of either the scabs (ie their vehicles) or of the company (smash down the gates.) As soon as they do that, they are no longer Striking Workers, but rather Filthy Criminals who are engaging in assault, vandalism, and other disgusting felonies. I lose respect and sympathy for them at that point.

Therefore, I think that the National Guard would be well used protecting the lives and well being of the scabs, and the property of the company, from criminal acts committed by strikers.

Perhaps that's not what Walker meant. But if he thinks he can force workers to work through threat of violence, he's in for a nasty PR surprise.

 

I've heard something different, that WI is running a $120 Million surplus this year, without the proposed cuts. I wonder which numbers are right?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#41655758

Yes, actually they do have those "fat cats" and they just CUT their state taxes, which is part of the fury over this issue.

Scab teachers? Sorry, our schools aren't like driving trucks or stacking inventory on a loading dock. Teaching postitions require background checks and a somewhat lengthy hiring process. I find it unlikey the state would hire "scab" teachers to fill their schools unless this situation were to drag on for a few months.

 

I was talking about factory workers, not teachers, Chandos. See, look:

Emphasis added.

But my point stands -- if the unions start any violence while they are picketing, be it whatever union or association, then they need to be dealt with as criminals. Being on strike doesn't give anyone the right to commit crimes.

 

That's great and all, except that I thought that quote I posted was by TGS. Sorry, for the mistake, LKD.