Wizards unnecessary?

Remove all ads!

@Ilmater's Suffering
A sorc will get enough different spells per level in HOF-mode which makes them able to pick every useful spell. This makes them better even as secondary casters.
That being said I always have a wizard as secondary caster. I never know if I want to cast an otherwise almost useless spell just for fun.
My last party had a sorc as primary nuker, a drow wiz as enchanter/secondary nuker, a bard11/sorc19 as backup-caster having all almost useless spells. He also worked as a backup healer/nuker. My cleric and my druid shared the role of being primary healers, backup nukers and buffers. My last member was a high-ac-decoy with enough wiz-levels to buff herself and nuke everything aroud. This gave me enough fire-power to fry a whole enemy army in just one or two rounds in HOF.

 

Yep, absolutely nothing wrong with Wizzies as backup casters. Heck, it's not a bad idea to select a specialist rather than a generalist, particularly since the Sorc will be your primary nuker. I suppose that it depends on whether you'd want your secondary caster/wizzy to also be nuking or to be the sort of arcane caster who is covering the holes in the sorc's spell selection. Personally, I think that that latter is more interesting, since 1 nuker is almost always more than enough.

 

That's right, IWD 2 doesn't implement epic levels and makes up class progression after level 20. I suppose that would make Wizards rather worthless next to a scorerer at high levels.

Though by 20+ you don't need any classes other then magic users and one theif so traps don't kill ya. My barbarian, paladin and sorc/fighter (though he slowed every one down before HOF) primarily slowed the rest of the party down during HOF. I think by the point the Sorcerer bypasses the Wizard in utility, only clerics or druids still have combat use.

 

To crucis
Thanks a lot for the tip, it works perfectly.I´d rather prefers this advice than the other that people give me:
make a spell caster PCs Neutral or evil so they don´t get stunned by Blasphemy( but instead GET stunned when I use Holy word)

 

My main problem with Wizards is that it is too much of a hassle trying to find the right scrolls at the right time.

 

Wizard is better suited to MC as high INT benefits more, and wizards do gain new level of spells faster, which is soo important in a MC build, I think.

 

While I agree with pretty much everything that has been said before, there are a couple of things missed out.

Wizards get an extra feat every 5 levels, which does allow you to pick all the Greater Spell Focus feats as well as all the other feats you might want/need.

As already said, wizards make good backup spellcasters and are better at multi-classing, so here are two more unusual ways of using them:
1) Pick 5 wizard levels for your tank - you get an extra feat and you can cast Blur and Mirror Image (self-cast only). I'd personally pick either a Deep Gnome or a Demarch of Mask cleric, though.
2) Pick 11 levels for your tank for Tensor's Transformation, making him/her a super tank.

As a final note, you can minimize INT for a human sorcerer and he/she still gets as many skill points as a INT 12 non-human sorcerer - if that is your thing. It means the human can be more of a tank than a spellcaster...

 

I like Wizards. While the Sorcerer has his own uses - he is the party Nuker/Bombardier, the Wizard's strength lies in his versatility - which means a lot. If you follow the JUPP closely though, you won't see the Wizard shine at all since the JUPParty was designed to utilize nuking at its fullest - and this of course the specialty of the Sorcerer.

pyreforge is correct in several respects.
The point is with a Sorcerer it's just a matter of attracting everything with your decoy and having your Sorcerer bombard everything to pieces (and cast a few debuff and buff spells). This method is so efficient and straightforward anyone can do it.
With a Wizard you'll have to rely on wise spell use and party management - and you probably won't get things right with your first few tries. But believe me that once you get the hang of it, there are several battles in HoF (and not a few major ones among them) in which a simple Wizard could have outshined a Sorcerer. These are usually the ones when other alternatives besides massive use of nuking spells are available. I've also had run-throughs in which a Wizard proved more useful than a Sorcerer simply because I could switch spell builds. (mass nuking->mass disabling->mass summoning)

[ July 21, 2006, 17:43: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

I am trying a PURE sorc for the first time and he is simply amazing, pure destructive power! Muhahahaha! Those orcs really cry!

 

"the Wizard's strength lies in his versatility"

Problem is, you don't need much versatility in this game if you pick spells carefully. Furthermore, if you have two sorcs, you can get tons of versatility while still giving both access to a few core spells like Mirror Image and Skull Trap.

"there are several battles in HoF ... in which a simple Wizard could have outshined a Sorcerer."

Name two. Then name one where wiz+wiz or wiz+sorc is better than sorc+sorc.

 

This is untrue. While you can certainly survive the game and take on even boss battles with a just a few staple spells, the fact is you'll need a specific list of other classes to take make sure everything else is covered.

If you decide to make a nuker Sorc, for example, you'll need a decoy to maximize the efficiency of his spell selection. Same goes with any other kind of Sorcerer - whether summoner, disabler-type...

While a Sorcerer can certainly survive even HoF on his own he'll have a considerably harder time without the aid of this fixed list of other classes. The Wizard shares no such constraint. He can adapt to any situation. So while a Sorcerer with lots of nuke spells will need to carry around a Swirfnebin Cleric/Monk/etc. decoy, a Wizard needs only to change his spell build when a decoy is not present.

There is some arguement on the fact that a Sorcerer can try to vary his spell selection to match a Wizard's, but a Sorcerer than never be good at everything the way wizards are - I don't know many Sorcerers who have Fireshield Red and Blue, Spider Spawn and Emotion:Rage Spells to go with the other LvL 4 staples like Stoneskin and Mordenkainen's Force Missiles, for example.

On the contrary, you actually become constrained if you decide to carry around two Sorcs. Sure you can probably spam spells from two spellbooks - around 14 spells per level, but a single Wizard can potentially cast just about every spell in the game as well, albeit without the ability to spam every one of them.

No, the point in bringing two Sorcerers is for you to spell-spam. You bring two Sorcerers so you can spam spells better, not to gain versatility.

Unfortunately bringing another Sorcerer along acounts for a lost party slot, and there are other classes which can make a more suitable partymate for a Sorcerer rather than another Sorcerer.

My experience included the Final Battle and the Graveyard Fight. My Wizard was in a party with two Drow Bard/Fighters and a Swirfneblin Lorekeeper of Oghma/Fighter.

So why were these battles easier with a Wizard? Because in this party my Wizard had the role of the main caster, and he had to cycle between nuking spells, summoning spells, disabling/buffing spells and an odd spell or two. While a Sorcerer can try to make a spell selection consisting of a summoning spells, a buff spell, a disable spell and a nuke spell, depending on the spell level, I needed spells like Emotion: Rage, Blood Rage, Spider Spawn and an assortment of other spells which you probably wouldn't pick as a Sorcerer - these spells work wonders in several situations, but I'll doubt you'll be casting Spider Spawns or Blood Rage in front of Isair and Madae. Spider Spawn is excellent against humanoids and mages, Blood Rage makes my summons more powerful and Emotion Rage: Rage goes well combined with Tymora's Melody and Ballad of the Three Heroes.

This party was strong enough to literally mow down everything it its path in HoF - one of my better parties, and I wouldn't have traded its Wizard for any Sorcerer.

There isn't much point in bringing two Sorcerers when you can simply choose a Wizard if you want a diverse caster, or when you can choose a character from another class to fill that second Sorcerer's slot to complement the first Sorcerer's skills better.

Once you start thinking about trying out spell combinations, finding spell comboes that work and working out spell comboes to make a specific HoF battles easier, at some point you'll yearn for other spells you simply can't give to your Sorcerer since it might involve leaving out a staple, or since these particular spell comboes only work for specific situations. Spells like Spider Spawn, some emotions spells, the Fireshield spells and several others fall into this category. Nuking - for all its effectiveness and the feeling that comes with unleashing hell on your enemies with DBFB, Abi Dalzim's, Skull Traps, while casting Haste and Emotion: Hope on your allies, summoning Shades or whatnot and wreaking havoc on your enemies with Emotion: Despair, Malison, Chaos, etc. becomes tedious after a few run throughs.
Nowadays, I summon Shades, cast a few odd spells and combined with Bard songs watch them tear my enemies apart.

[ July 25, 2006, 15:20: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]

 

Scythesong, sorcerer is actually more versatile than wizard, because he doesn't have to prepare spells ahead of time.

I'm starting to see the problem...

Fire Shields are bad; they deal out a few points of damage and rely on your caster getting hit. Even with M.I up, you don't want to get hit. By the way, how many M.I. does your wizard prepare per day, and what do you do when he runs out? When he prepares "too many", you have unused wasted slots at the end of the day. A sorcerer can cast exactly as many M.I. as he needs each day, and use the extra slots on other things.

Spider spawn... ugh. Pretty poor as summon spells go, but better than S.M.4. This is why, in normal, you should rely on your clerics for summons: Animate Dead and Giant Vermin.

How many slots per day does your wizard waste on Emotion: Rage? It only lasts 5 rounds and is very weak. Compare to Emotion: Hope.

Mordenkainen's Force Missiles: Overrated, especially at lower levels. For example, with an XL12 caster it does 4d4 damage to a *single* target, plus 24 points in a small radius... but a reflex save negates the latter part. It gets better at XL13 and pretty decent at XL16 -- but it still only hits one target (the splash radius is too small to count on).

If you check the first page of this very thread, you'll see a post by me with spells known for two example level 12 sorcerers in the same party. Together they cover essentially everything a level 12 party could want from its arcane spellcasters.

Why don't you try something similar for a level 12 wizard? I'll let you pretend he's found and learned every scroll, so all you need to do is pick the spells he typically prepares each day (in reality, finding the desired wizard scrolls in ID2 is a pain in the butt). You can assume his party includes a level 12 sorc.

(these numbers are for 22 INT)
1st (6): ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ______
2nd (6): ______ ______ ______ ______ ______ ______
3rd (5): ______ ______ ______ ______ ______
4th (4): ______ ______ ______ ______
5th (4): ______ ______ ______ ______
6th (3): ______ ______ ______

 

I really disagree on this. Versatility means being able to adapt to several situations. What you're referring to is something else. A Wizard can simply rest if he needs to replenish his spells.

When or where I want to get hit depends on the situation, and as far as tactics are concerned the Death Armor+Fireshield:Red+Fireshield:Blue+M.I. combo has its uses, but mind you I'm not stupid enough to try it in a situation wherein my caster can potentially get swarmed in HoF.

There's such a thing as being able to "prepare for a battle". While there's always a chance that something can go horribly wrong, that's what the other classes are for. With a Wizard I simply memorize the number of M.I.'s that I think will be enough for a particular journey or encounter.

Giant Vermin isn't worth its slot in normal unless your cleric is at a very high level, IMO. Spider Spawn is, however. It's very effective against humanoids and encounters involving humanoids even in HoF - especially with the presence of two Bards in the party.

Emotion: Rage is for the summons. It complements the Bard Songs and area buffs, and I usually use it in conjunction with Emotion: Hope. Sometimes I toss a few Blood Rages into the mix, for better results.

That depends. Not every party needs two Sorcerers, and arcane needs depend from party to party. While as far as finishing the game is concerned we can rely on a few staples spells, which is why the Sorcerer is so popular, when we start talking about winning battles in the best way possible I tend to gravitate towards the Wizard, but this depends from party to party. For example, your two Sorcerers would have a problem in the beginning stages of the game since we know how Arcane casters are at low levels. And if these two are Drow, which is typically what my Wizard is, I wouldn't count on anything being easy for you until you finish the Horde Fortress quest (especially with that spell selection), at least - unless your party consists of only 3 people. IMO, though, the 4-people party is the best type - although a 5-people party comes close. Of course, that also depends on whether you have a decoy in your party, in which case your first part of the game would consist primarily of pure hack n' slash until you get fireball.
Now, while I agree that two Sorcerers can be a formidable force in late-game, a Wizard + another class *is* as well. A 4 person party with an ECL-race Wizard and Sorcerer, for example, would enjoy having powerful spells earlier into the game while being able to compete with the spellslinging two Sorcerers can provide in late game. Note that this is the case in the JUPP.

I think you don't understand my point.
See those blanks you placed? My point is, for a Sorcerer those blanks are a fixed group of spells that he can cast a number of times per day. For a Wizard, those blanks might be the only spells he can cast per day but they can be any spell in the game. While Sorcerer can potentially work his way through a *lot* of battles, a Wizard is limited to only a few ones but his ability to prepare spells for a particular set of battles is what gives him an edge over the Sorcerer. *This* is versatility - and it works for us players who think we don't have to finish the game in a set number of days. The Sorcerer's way of being able to get through battles without having the need to prepare spells ahead of time, and get through as many battles as possible for as long as he still has casting points per day isn't versatility - it's in fact the opposite of it. Just because the Sorcerer can get through more battle than the Wizard can doesn't mean he's versatile.

BTW, proper spell selection *can* make a battles easier or harder in IWD2.

That depends. If you're going into the game too fast - that is, with a party of 3 or less members - and your Wizard isn't a Drow or Dark Gnome then you *will* find yourself at a shortage of spell scrolls. The same is true if you bring two Wizards. (Brining a second wizard is redundant. A second main caster is only brought for the purpose of spell-spamming, which is what the Sorcerer is for)

Wizards typically shine in ECL parties since they get spells slots earlier than the Sorcerer, and by the time they can memorize higher level spells the scrolls are already available for them.

[ July 27, 2006, 12:25: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]