World Trade Center

Remove all ads!

First off: I said the Koran and Bible are BASED on the same book. That means the jewish holy book. Besides the Jesus/Mohammed thing was not supposed to be taken literally.
Anyway: I just can't see how christianity and islam can't get along! We believe in the same God for crying out loud!
Besides it's insane to even consider bombing anything. Nothing can justify that kind of sick revenge.
And it's odd how horrified people are about this. Does anyone care about what the US did to Japan? Do you have any idea how many civilians died in Hiroshima and Nakisakhi?
But THAT is just considered for "the greater good".
People are so depressed about the death of so many americans, but doesn't seem to care if thousands of innocents are killed along with the guilty people.

 

I have a statement that im not quite sure of here. If it was Bin Laden and even if it wasnt he has made his share of grief in the world. But im pretty sure that the CIA trained Bin Laden and some of his men during the soviet invasion of Afganistan to fight the russians. I am not sure about this but i think i have heard it in a documentary of some sorts. I would be happy if someone could tell me if its true or not. But if it is true its the worst example of the worlds irony i have ever seen.

PS. Im positive that the Talibans was trained by CIA during the soviet invasion.

DS. I am not trying to offend someone and i feel wit hthe victems and am still chocked. But i want to make sense in the unsensable.

 

Divine Shadow, don't start digging up historical evidence of a countries evil as an excuse to say who's "had it coming"

Yes, Japan had two nuclear weapons dropped on them, but as BTA said it was done with the intention of ending a war, and (if you want to play it this way) Japan was no innocent nation. As far as massacres of their own go we have:

1) The Rape of Nanking (China is still smarting from that: 40,000 murdered Chinese)

and 2) The Shenanegins in North Korea (I don't remember the year... but it did involve collecting the ears and noses of the slain Korean citizens which became part of a museum in Japan called [I think] "The Japanese Nose mound")

So tell me Divine Shadow, how may Japanese were mourning the loss of 40,000 Chinese that they slaughtered.

Give me a break.

 

Divine Shadow I don't speak for the Koran because I don't know much about it, so I don't make false asumptions about it. But I will speak about the Bible, and the Bible is comprised of the Old Testament and the New Testament. I will assume that when you say "Jewish holy book" you are refering to the books that make up the Old Testament. The Bible isn't based on these it's comprised of these. There is a difference.

 

Let's look at this from a religious point of view.

The bible was written about Jesus's doings and preaches, while the Koran is the words of God itself written down by Mohammed.

Polythism is called shirk and one of the most terrible sins you can commit in Islam. They don't believe in Christ being the son of God, and can't understand the Trinity being one God, to them there are 3, and therefore christian people are committing shirk.

The Japanese wouldn't give up, and an invasion would cause heavy casualties because the Japanese were rather suicidal themselves. So they dropped those bombs to spare all those lives who else would be lost.

 

if it matters, belgium is on your side 2!
but I'm not, ppl are gonna have to join the military if a war comes out of this, solve your own problems americans!!!!!

 

We'll be happy to solve our own problems.

And we'll remember it when your pathetic country comes whining to us for help AGAIN.

Now is really not the time to play trolling games, Kevlar. Grow up.

 

So 106 post later KEVLAR says this! I am chocked!! Have you learned nothing from 106 post?

I have the deepest sympathy Sharlp, And I agree that something must be done to eradicate terrorism from the earth permanently. Just not in a violent and mindless act killing millions of innocent.

 

To Divine Shadow and in general to all those who say 'we had it coming', How do the events of WWII reflect on the actions of this past week? Japan did not attack us. The one major fact that you over look is that when we bombed Japan we were at war. The use of nuclear weapons was an attempt to end the war without an invasion of the Japanese home islands. This attack would have cost the lives of one million US service personnel and countless Japanese deaths. In the long run the atomic bombs saved lives. During the war neither side was without guilt for crimes against the other. But during total war it is the duty of a nation to use all its resources to win. To do any less is pointless.

But the US and the other allies of WWII have spent billions to rebuild and stablize their former enemies. So I ask you was it Germany or Japan that attacked us on Tuesday? No, clearly not so what baring do the action of WWII have to do with this event? Germany and Japan are allies of the United States today and also embrace the concepts of freedom that the west hold dear. The attack on the US was also an attack on their lifestyle as well. Hence, the actions of NATO yesterday.

Please tell me 'how we had it coming'? Is it the billions of dollars of foreigon aid the US pays out every year? Is it the stablility the US bring to the global economy? Is the live of US service men that were lost to portect the freedom of other around the world? Is the chance giving to people of the world to come to the United States to create a better live? To live as they will? To worship as they will?

I can't quite follow you logic. Please explain how we had it coming.

 

Red and white, blue suede shoes,
I'm Uncle Sam, how do you do?
Gimme five, I'm still alive,
Ain't no luck, I learned to duck.

Check my pulse, it don't change.
Stay seventy-two come shine or rain.
Wave the flag, pop the bag,
Rock the boat, skin the goat.

Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.

I'm Uncle Sam, that's who I am;
Been hidin' out in a rock and roll band.
Shake the hand that shook the hand
Of P.T. Barnum and Charlie Chan.

Shine your shoes, light your fuse.
Can you use them ol' U.S. Blues?
I'll drink your health, share your wealth,
Run your life, steal your wife.

Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.

Back to back chicken shack.
Son of a gun, better change your act.
We're all confused, what's to lose?
You can call this song the United States Blues

Wave that flag, wave it wide and high.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.
Summertime done, come and gone, my, oh, my.

 

killing more people will solve nothing, it will only fuel a growing machine of rage and retribution - sometimes you wonder why we are the most "intelligent" species on earth when all we can think about are new ways of wiping ourselves off the earth

 

I'm going to sound like a prick and say that killing more people WILL solve this problem (for a while, anyway). Why? if we don't kill the people involved, they will eventualy commit another atrocity (please note: Tuesday was NOT a tragedy. it was an atrocity. A shark attack is a tragedy.).So. To keep this from happening again, we must kill those who were responsible. WHy not just imprison the bastards? you ask. Simple: how many psychos would hijack aircraft and say, "release *placeholderuntilenemy'sidentityisdiscover* or we'll kill everyone on the plane and crash it into another skyscraper."? Answer: too many

In case someone misunderstands me: I do not support a war against a nation. Unless a nation is found to have sponsored the atrocity. In which case, I'm all for deposing governments. However, I will not be satisfied until every terrorist we can find is a rotting corpse.

 

AMaster, I think that killing terrorists is no real solution. Additionally this is not an easy thing, especially when he's hiding in the mountaneous afgan deserts. And if you bomb away a generation of terrorists, you will radicalise the yet peaceful muslims by this. They will pretty likely consider this an attack on islam rather than an attack on criminals.
So IMO the use of cruise missiles or bombers is a pretty stupid idea. But I agree with you, this was an atrocity, not a tragedy.

But what makes these people attack america ? I can hardly think that the just want to kill americans for (a) they are evil, (b) muslim, (c) fanatics and (d) insane. Do not get me wrong, I don't want to defend them, but it cannot be that simple.

Just recall the history of afganistan:
When the russians invaded, they encountered firece and persistent resistance. The US government under Ronald Reagan found that a good opportunity to fight communisam. They supported the afgan mojaheds by supplying stingers and I bet that some special forces A-teams where there to gather intelligence on russian tactics and weapon systems as well as to train afgans (training guerrillas - that's what the army special forces are there for). The romantic fight against the evil russians atracted muslim mercenaries as well, which saw an opportunity to start a new islamic renaissance and enthusiastically joined the mojaheds.
Eventually the mojaheds were able to make the russians withdraw from afganistan, starting the end of the USSR. A great political success for the US.
After this problem was solved support for the mojaheds stalled. No aid, neiter financial nor material reached the overfilled refugee camps in pakistan. And while the afgans were now killing each other in efforts to gather control of the country a hopeless generation grew up. I bet you wondered why the taliban were able to seize power in afganistan ? To use people and to throw them away when you are finished is not really the nice way.

The ironic thing is that the isolation of afganistan will most likely drive the afgans, muslim or not, to plat opium again to finance their survival and fighting.

Or take the muslim fanatics from other arab states, namely egypt. The egypt leader Mubarak is a military dictator. The US need him for they want him to act as a mediator between the palestinians and the isrelis and to ensure a safe passage through the suez channel and to grant Israel a safe border in the south.
The egypt government inprisons at will without fair trial. It is unable to get a grip at the countries problems, especially overpoulation and economic crisis. So for the desperate there is a solution instead of the state: Islam. It gives easy answers to the everyday problems.

So, when the islam groups fight their government, they in fact do have a reason for their deeds. They now went a step further and attacked the supporter of their governments, the US.

Interesting, isn't it ? Well, of course it is no excuse for an atrocity.

 

shralp, your country help us?
like when, world war? we didnt need your country, the war would only lasted longer.

/me doesnt need your big though nation shralp

 

I dont know what friggin country shralp is from and i dont care, the US could take it and we dont NEED any help.

 

Folks, I've been reading the boards, and as always, it is filled with emotion and insight. It pains me however, that instead of strengthening our resolve, the tragedy of the past few days has begun to seep into our hearts and is slowly manifesting its venom through painful words and hurtful remarks. Is this the lesson that the bombings truly want to teach us? To perpetuate a culture of violence and insensitivity we as a race have been trying so long to rise above from?

There are those of you who feel that humanity has no hope. Why!? What makes you close the door on the future of a species in which you are an integral part of? For if it is true that we indeed have no hope, no chance to rise beyond our failings and shortcomings, then what are we still all doing here? What can be said of the value we place to OUR OWN LIVES if we shutout the rest of humanity?

Pain is a fact of life. Everyone has and will experience some sort of hurt in life. Yet as long as we can feel pain, we know that we are alive. And as long we are alive, there is still hope.

I know because even 'til now, I've recieved no news about my relations in New York. Friends of mine have gotten good news about their loved ones. I am still in the dark. Still, the only thing that keeps me strong is hope. Hope is the fuel that stokes the flames of the emotions and values that make men, human. Courage, compassion, tenderness, love, faith, all these cannot exist without a promise of something better. Hope.

I hope that my uncle and his family is fine. I hope that they are starting to get own with their lives. I hope that I will hear from them soon.

And if the Divine takes them away from me, I hope that I will have the courage to accept their passing. I hope that I will honor their memory with the strength to move on, and the compassion to comfort those of my family who are ruled by their grief.

I hope that if any of them pass on, I will realize that my despair, my sorrow, and the tears that I will shed are due to my needs, my selfishness, my lonliness, for wherever they will be, they will be in a better place than we are now, where we continue to bicker and point fingers.

CHARACTER IS WHAT YOU ARE IN THE DARK.

And in 26 years, I am pressed to remember darker days in our history as a race. If we become more responsible, more caring and MORE MATURE persons, then we will turn this tragedy into inspiration.

I have learned many things from all of you, reading your insights and opinions. All of you have continued to make me a better person by giving me the opportunity to learn from your wisdom and humor, your triumphs and pain. I have said somewhere on this board that one of the strengths of this community is that we all respectfully agree to disagree, a sign of acknowledging the uniqueness and the individuality of each and every member of the two thousand and growing members. I HOPE it will continue to remain that way.

Folks, if only I can take away all the anguish and anger that has overcome us. But I can't. I can only begin to deal with mine, and it is an everyday struggle with worry and expectation. So let's not add to the negativity that's already out there. Lets us argue with respect, and be open of mind and heart to what others have to say.

I won't pretend to know your grief and anger. All I can do is soothe you all with honest words. Let not emotion rule us by itself, let us learn to temper it with thought, reason and contemplation. Let's leave semantics as semantics, not as a personal affront to our beliefs.

Once again, I remind you, and myself as well, what counts is what we do and how we live the rest of our lives after we post our words on this board. Tragedy and grief can be overcome, but not by adding fuel to our hate and anger.

I don't know what happens after this. I feel the next few months will be a crucial turning point in our history. To borrow from a friend, I hope and pray that the Sword of Justice will be swift and unyielding, but wielded by a wise and compassionate hand.

Be safe, everyone.



[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

Thank you eveningdrive for sharing your wisdom with us. I'll be remembering you and your family in my prayers.

/me gives eveningdrive a shoulder massage.


Ragusa, I have to disagree with you. The terrorists must be punished; otherwise they will be emboldened by their success (particularly with all the media they are getting) and go on to do worse. As for other Muslims being driven to radical measures by our reprisals, I think not. Most governments even in the Middle East have condemned the attack. Even Pakistan is considering letting us use them for a base to launch our campaign from. I think that if we extended our attack to include the nation of Afghanistan, we would start causing political problems, but as long as we restrict ourselves to those directly responsible, I doubt anybody will complain.

 

i agree, america has to attack the terrorists. not because of hate, not because of vengence, not because of religion, not because of punishment. but because if it does not, there may be more american deaths. america should attack, yes. but it should not rejoice in the act of killing them.

 

mark my words. They don't know who did this. They will never find out. They will use whatever means to make a scapegoat out of anyone. Even if it was that ali baba guy... they won't find him. Bear in mind that the u.s. has an enormous problem with internal terrorism. If this wasn't an inside job on certain intelligence levels, then i'm a monkey's uncle. Don't be fooled by what cnn tells you. Media, while providing valuable information, is manipulative and sensational. They like viewership/readership. Makes them money. Be very very very careful about how you judge these crimes. I am not american, but i watch these events with great dismay and worry greatly about the reprecussions... especially in light of the current presidency. Scary. My deepest condolensces to everyone affected. Troubling stuff.... the world is watching.