Worthwhile Mods

I was only informing people that if, like I did, they would like to use these 3 worthwhile mods together in the same install without experiencing any bugs, that they can do so. And I told them how. I'm not the only guy that's done this. People have been working around Vlad's coding of NEJ to make it compatible with "mod X" for years. Since bioware doesn't complain about BG2 players using third party mods, I don't think modders have a lot of room telling people what they are and are not allowed to do with their mods. I love having the fixes from the fixpack. I enjoyed my NEJ/IA playthrough. Since I did enjoy my experience (and a lot of the folks on this forum would enjoy these mods even more than I did), I see no reason not to recommend using all 3 of them together. In fact, I heartily recommend it, at least once.

 

1- G3 Fixpack is not listed as "incompatible" with IA in IA's readme. So, I really don't understand what Drew and SimDing are talking about when they make such a claim. I have just said that I will not offer technical supports if a player installs G3 fixpack with IA, because I'm not familiar with G3 Fixpack and I don't have the time to check it for its possible bugs with every new release. The two mods may or may not be compatible. The two mods were surely incompatible in the past (because of the bug in G3 Fixpack) and that's why it was once listed as incompatible; but now we are not sure about their compatibility (or lack thereof) and now the G3 Fixpack is not currently in the list of incompatible mods.

2- As for why IA needs to be installed after all other mods, there are plenty of strong reasons (and no, it's not merely for the AI improvements). Recently, a player violated this rule and he faced bugs. When he corrected the order of installation, the bug diappeared. The thread is still available in IA's forum. It's ridiculous that some people (SimDing in particular) think that they know more about my mod than I do. I think it's obvious that I know more about my own mod than other people do.

EDIT: I agree that it is, in principle, possible to have a mod which can be installed after IA without breaking anything; but since this "in principle" probablity is "practically" very low (and unlikely) and since I can't check every mod's content to make sure that it can (or cannot) be installed after IA (most of them can't anyway), I advise players on the basis of the higher probabilities and tell them to install IA last (which would most probably be the right advice in more than 99% of cases even if we had the time to check all mods). In this way, the chance of conflict will be minimized. For example, we are now sure that most NPC mods and all AI improving mods will break the game if the player installs them after IA. It's, of course, "in principle" possible to have an NPC mod which can also be installed after IA; but since it is a low probability and since we don't have the time to check everything in all mods, we recommend players not to install any mod after IA as the safest solution.

[ May 07, 2007, 11:24: Message edited by: Sikret ]

 

I'd second the recommendation of the Longer Road - it is worth playing at least once, as is (if you wish to experience a romance with a female PC) Edwin Romance.

One point here really makes me uncomfortable:

"(NEJ looks for it in the .tp2 and refuses to install if it's there)"

I know some mods check for the others, if both authors have agreed on it. For example, Kelsey has a Banter Accelerator and Banter Pack has a Banter Accelerator(an interesting add-on for players who wish to hear and see as many dialogues as they can, by the way). Same with many other mods. Gavin NPC(for TUTU, a very interesting addition), for example, checks for BG1 NPC Project(another worthy one, but I am biased, since I've participated in it). This is very useful for creating crossmod content, and helps to avoid duplicating content, as well.

But I think that checks for other mods should only be added when both authors have expressed permission to add them. Otherwise, they should well leave the other mods alone.

 

Hmmm...

Specific recommendations for folks who want the least trouble:

1. Google is your friend. There are several communities that can help you. There are a fair number of posts already existing that can give you some great recommendations.

2. The ReadMe and forums give what that modder would like you to use. A good read of forum posts will tell you alot about what works and what doesn't. If Drew, Chevalier, Azazzello, or any player who has been around on the forums for a long time says it works, and a Readme and forum review says otherwise, skip the modders, and PM them for a copy of their WeiDU.LOG to see what their order is (a number of forums have those materials available already posted - SHS in particular has a bunch of folks who play Mega-BP installs.)

3. Modders can't check for everything, but a read of the forum responses will let you know if a modder has time or is willing to help with compatability problems when you deviate from their ReadMe. A modder only has so much time; if they choose to spend it on making new content available, rather than making it work with another mod, this is a principled choice that means you get more of their content, so just find another community to get the help from. Don't bust their chops or ignore their mod because you have to play it "thier way" - you just got a free game expansion, and all they ask for 1000's of hours of work is that you set up the game for the way they built it. Besides, you don't have to bother them - go around them. There are several communities who actively work to try to make things compatible.

4. The debate over Baldurdash vs. G3 Fixpack is not really a debate - hasn't been one for years. G3 Fixpack is the only living, evolving fixing resource which takes into account the actions and coding of as much of the I.E. modding community as possible. Individual modders may argue all sorts of stuff, but for the end user, the most complete and supported set of fixes are there - as are a team of folks across several communities willing to chip in and change things. principles or no principles, it doesn't matter - sticking with a Model-T Ford is only good if you like to go to Antique Auto Shows. Baldurdash did a good job, but the community has moved on, and the game is much cleaner and better for it.

I personally choose BG2_Fixpack, and then have a huge range of mods from which to choose to install. Given Drew says there may not be a problem (and now Silkret has said it isn't specifically listed as "incompatible", I will go ahead and try IA4 this summer; the code looks good and the quests look interesting (from D and BAF excursions, not from playing).


My final suggestion is that there are a number of ways to play the game, so I would argue a great, *very conservative* install that will run pretty much bug free and happy would include just

G3 BG2_Fixpack
Moineese' Avatars
1PixelProductions
Keto
Taisha
Longest Road (or Ascension, one or the other)
Divine Remix
BG2_Tweaks
thebigg's Tweaks (a chosen few)
SimDingo's Tweaks(a chosen few)

Of course, if I was a player who wanted to load up my install, there are huge discussions on this at SHS, complete with folks who create Mega-BP installs, and get the impossible to happen.


my $2 (it started as 2p, but i got carried away. Go figure ) A final note - it's just 1s and 0s. in each case, you can back out what you don't want, and then install what you do. That's why weiDU is so great!

p.s. I agree with kulyok about the flagging things - but then again, i don't believe that a modder should 'gun' for another mod or modder in code. Fotrum posts, trash talk, etc. -- ok. But i hope our effrts at helping users doesn't turn back the closk to Mod wars. Face it folks, we are a small audience. Fragment us, and we will all go and play/mod Oblivion, and leave the jackals your bones.

[ May 07, 2007, 18:18: Message edited by: cmorgan ]

 

@CMorgan: BD Weidu is still being actively developed at Blackwyrm lair, but, since it isn't a cross community effort, it isn't much larger in scope than the original Baldurdash....and is nowhere near as large in scope as the BG2 fixpack.

 

Fortunately (I don't doubt BD-WeiDU has problems too, but its scope is still fortunately bugfixing and not tweaking in big sizes.)

They can recommend something, in order to guarantee the quality they want to give to the player. "This is what I offer. You are free to install X mod, but if you do so, I can't give support". Some modders give a stress to this by detecting if the other mod is installed. Everyone can have his/her own opinion about this -- to each his own. As long as its only detection, there is no problem. It's non-destructive. Modifying or actively doing anything else with another mod is a totally different matter (it's strongly unethical if it's done without the authors' agreements). And players can simply remove the line from the TP2 anyway. But at least it will protect from totally daft "players", and this is very important. See my "story" below.

I would like to point out that not all players are as smart as (most of) those who post in these forums. I saw someone at Bioware who was wondering why the game was so hard. After a few posts, it was found out that he had installed IA. Then he started blaming IA. It was totally obvious that he didn't know what IA does, in fact, at the end I realised the player didn't even know what the mods do that he installed. Probably just downloaded a bunch of mods and installed them without checking what they do at all. And then he starts blaming a mod...

 

Ahhh... my bad. I read BWL, but hadn't seen activity, so I assumed it was no longer going. Bad assumption on my part; I forgot general forums don't post accessible workroom activity. Even worse of me to dismiss it without PMing Baronius first to ask if it was still going. Thanks for setting me straight, Drew.

I can only then speak from preference;

I can rephrase by saying "In my experience, working with tracking bugs and bugpostings from across several communities, investigating Tutu/BGT/BG2 installs and savegames, and learning how to do this modding stuff, I have personally decided the best choice for a player to recieve supported, comprehensive, community based efforts at repairing problems players encounter, coupled with a strong helpful ear if something goes wrong, can be found in the G3 BG2_Fixpack".

Plus, they have Nythrun. And I have it on personal authority that she is a Goddess.

 

The questionable fixes (which some may consider tweakish) are actually in a seperate component from the core fixes.

 

"Players have not reported any conflict between IA and G3 Fixpack" is true. BUT, "Players didn't have any bugs in their games while playing IA and G3 Fixpack" is certainly false. All those players who have tried IA with any version of G3 Fixpack older than non-betha v2 had certainly bugs in their games; they just have not noticed them. The fact that they didn't notice them doesn't entail that the bugs didn't exist. We now know very well that they did exist.

All versions of G3 Fixpack older than "non-betha v2" had a critical bug which would corrupt one of the game's original spells. The spell is actually used in some of IA's improved battles. The players who used G3 Fixpack with IA had a critical bug during those battles, but they never noticed it. They won those battles easily without knowing that the enmy's script was broken. Since they had not played IA without G3 Fixpack before, they had no idea of the real and intended difficulty of those battles. They were just happy to defeat (say) Draconis so easily, without knowing that G3 Fixpack had broken the battle.

For example, Drew said that he had tried IA with G3 Fixapck and had never noticed a problem. He says the truth. He never noticed a problem. But then, he concluded that no problem existed. This is false. He had a critical bug in his game for sure (unless he was using the latest current version of G3 Fixpack which was not probably released at that time.)

The bottom line is that all those players who want to play IA and experience its content in its full calibre will follow my installation instructions completely. Others who want to take the risk of possible bugs can do whatever they wish on their own risks.

As I said before, IA has its own Fix/Tweak pack which is optimized for IA's own requirements. All those bugs which are not fixed by Baldurdash TOB Fixpack V1.12 will be fixed by IA (itself). G3 Fixpack may (or may not) be compatible with IA, but you won't really need to take the risk of possible bugs by installing it. It is not listed as "incompatible" because we are not sure whether its latest version is incompatible with IA. Nonetheless, I still strongly recommend NOT to use G3 Fixpack with IA.

*Edited for typos

[ May 08, 2007, 15:49: Message edited by: Sikret ]

 

Yes, I've definitely always considered the lack of a no-CD crack for my game to be the most severe of bugs!

Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone can talk about BD-WeiDU with a straight face given that the old author has taken to championning the Fixpack and the sole maintainer is Vlad who won't use anything that isn't vintage 1985.

 

No need for this desperate defence of G3 "Fixpack", SimDing0. As Drew said, everyone is free to check the mods' own forums for information and decide what he/she considers to be a worthwhile mod to install. Readmes are useful too. I've also told my points. (On a side note, BD-WeiDU's latest version, IIRC in fact even the previous release, doesn't include any crack.)

Very good point. Many modders forget the fact that a bug or incompatibility doesn't necessarily causes a crash, a freeze or other spectacular phenomenon. They can have "hidden" effects. For example, a (released, known) mod changes the same attribute as another known mod. Only the changes of the last installed mod will take effect in case of this attribute, and for example, this will cause a battle in the first mod to happen in a (perhaps totally) different way than the author of the first mod made it (As we know, even one bit can make difference in certain cases). What's the result? Players know that the first mod improves/adds battles, and will judge it according to that battle -- and perhaps report that "it worked fine together with Y mod despite the incompatibility warning, though it's not particularly my cup of tea". Yeah, no crash and no broken quest, so no incompatibility! I'm talking generally and not about IA, but who knows if -- for example -- Drew has experienced what Sikret actually added to IA. (Considering Drew doesn't always follow installation instructions -- install order, incompatible components etc. He seems to be inclined to experiment and override the original recommendations.) That is, the statement those mods were tested together and everything worked perfectly is valid if and only if all important aspects have been checked. If there haven't been any broken quests or items, CTDs, incorrect dialogues etc., it still means almost nothing.

All in all, certain modders consider "practice" and "concrete examples" as the only useful sources of information on quality, compatibility, future compatibility risk etc. It's true that in many cases practice offers the most significant information eventually, but, for example, it's very often inadequate to allow us to generalize, or to give reliable information in case of a question. (Just imagine if science and engineering -- including the things that influence the everyday life of all of us -- was purely based on practice and tests. In fact, science would have never reached this level without abstraction and generalization.) And several problems of IE modding should be examined from a theoretical view as well. (NiGHTMARE's statement at BWL is a good example of wrong belief in this matter. He said he uses the word "theoretically" when he isn't sure about something. When I asked for clarification, his words made it obvious to me that his conception of the word's real meaning is completely wrong.) To sum up, I advise modders to include other aspects as well beside pure practice, when examining certain things.

This latter paragraph might be long and might look off-topic, but I believe that it's good if players also know about this (i.e. hidden bugs exist, incompatibility isn't just crash etc.) when selecting their "worthwhile mods".

[ May 08, 2007, 17:46: Message edited by: Baronius ]

 

Hey dmc: got that beer and popcorn concession up and running yet? It looks as if we're going to need it.

On an only slighty more serious note, I'm getting ready to start rating these folks on their debating technique, rather than on the content they've created (for which I thank them, even if I have never tried their particular contribution). Given what this thread has become, I could hardly be accused of hijacking it any further than it has already gone

 

Indeed it was somewhat hijacked, unfortunately. If you see my posts in this topic, you'll notice that most of them are answers to actual questions posted by players -- until Drew started to comment a fact I've taken from an official readme (i.e. what the official readme says about a required fixpack). However, instead of watching the technique, you might want to interpret (certain) content as well. For example, as a player it might be useful for you to know that when others say two mods worked perfectly, it doesn't mean they're completely compatible -- and perhaps it won't work for you in the way their authors wanted. This is what I detailed in the previous post (as well). However, if you're looking exclusively for "my favourites are X, Y, and Z mod, they're cool" sort of answers, I'll try to complete your request below.

I would like to add BG2 Improvements to the list of the mods I've already recommended (ToD, IA). It has many components, so you can customize your installation easily. The selection includes a kit and a quest as well.

 

Point taken...

[directly on topic]
BG2 Mods.
From personal playing experience:

• Keto rocks.
• Xan is a must if you have a female PC and want some tragic romance.
• Taisha is a new find for me, and already I am in love. Don't tell my wife; it is bad enough I can't romance Keto.
• BG2_Tweaks rocks.
• The Bigg has good solid fixes. If you want to play on Wine/Linux, go check his posts out - you can't do better than the current God of WeiDU for finding out what works and what doesn't.
• SimDingo's goodberries and sections of his tweaks make Druids (whether you are one or just taking Jaheira along) worthwhile, and his XP mod is immensely useful for balanced, fun gameplay.
• Divine Remix makes Clerics, Paladins, and Rangers truly a good, new, and balanced set of classes.
• Flirt Packs are fun if you don't mind a PG13+ environment.
• Playing without the Banter Pack is a huge mistake. Don't start an install without it.
• Kivan and D - I love Domi's work, so I am way, way prejudiced, but I have to say I am going to find it tough to allow anyone else in that slot in my party. I know there is more out there, but I am finding it hard to imagine BG2 without a full story-arc buddy who actually responds in character, has solid quests, pathos, but opportunities to be the good guy winner. Very, very cool.

From forum research and code review, but not playing:

• Saerileth looks fun, but there are some forum posts indicating some troubles - it requires some reading. Plus some suspension of disbelief about a 15 yr old female Planar Paladin fallling immediately in love with a male PC. But I'm intrigued.
• AofE is popular, but I prefer to leave 2E class restrictions in place. Kits are interesting.
• Amber is an awesomely coded and interesting mod that allows Player2 to romance, so Multiplayer or singleplayer games who want more lovin' can be sure it is a well built, interesting, and well supported mod.
• BGT is a strong and well built mod that i don't usually play (I prefer Tutu), but it is a hugely good mod. I would recommend it if you are a single-playthrough-with-one-character-and-one-set-of-mods kind of player.

Most of the rest I reserve judgement on, either through lack of a full code review, through lack of unbiased forum posts to research/read, or because it does not ring any bells for me.
The good news is I have been studying these folks for over a year non-stop now, and I have only really scratched the surface. I have not worked with many CoM mods, or RPG Dungeon; and then there are all the foreign langage sites.

Lots to choose from...
[/directly on topic]

 

I have no wish to stand in the middle of the large brawl that occurs everytime you bunch meet, so I'll keep this to the point and hope you do the same. Do you consider experimenting with mods wrong? I can see it would be a bad idea if you were writing a review or playtesting components, but I'm not sure what is so wrong about making your own mind up with what you want to play with. This is even more applicable if the person in question is a modder themselves- they are more likely to understand the consequences of their actions. If they accept the mod author won't help them if they run into a problem, who's to say it is a bad idea?

Returning on topic:

I'm in two minds over Saerileth. She is written fairly well and has well balanced stats. OTOH, the language seems out of place when no-one else uses it and I've yet to endure the entire romance. This may just be me, so I'm not against recommending the mod. As to the 15 point- if this bothers you, then simply imagine her to be your country's minimum legal age. Easy solution.

 

Yes, as far as the person is customizing his own game, it's not a problem. The problem is when he doesn't follow a mod's installation instructions accurately and then appears in public forums to write incorrect things about the mod and gives misguided instructions and information to other players.

 

Since Decados is a player (to my knowledge), and he asked a question publicly and not a PM while quoting my post, I believe a very short answer belongs to here.

I've nowhere implied in that post that experimenting was wrong. All I said is that we can't be sure if Drew really had the gaming experience that the mods' authors actually included in their mods (due to the hidden incompatibilities that may be caused by the experimentation). And in such a case, when e.g. Drew judges the mod, he won't judge what the mods actually added, because their installation guidelines weren't followed.

If you have any questions to me related to any of my posts here, please feel free to send me a PM -- I'll reply when I can. I hope everyone will respect SP and won't keep bringing up mod development-related aspects in gaming topics.

 

[on topic]Good point on Saerileth. I am planning a summer game with her involved.

I realized my posts did not include some goodies worth looking at, and was male-centric...

I have used Zyrean's (I spelled it wrong, I think ) Accellerated Ust N component from his tweakpack, and it works great; I have also used UB. The only reason UB might not be on an "easy install" list is that it does require a little reading and edit at the present time, but I thik it's worth the forum time to read.

I don't usually add more dudes than Kivan (and Xan if I am thinking about a female PC, but I have never finished a game completely with him) into the game, but people report having strong reactions to Kelsey, pro and con. I think if you are looking for a dude, he's pretty interesting. [/On Topic]

It might be time for some of the playing folks to go do your own reactions/reviews, and put them up here at SP. Most modders like feedback (even when they don't agree, it means you played their mod - so if you are playing something you really like, it might be cool to write up your impressions as you play, and let folks know in a review format.

Modders really shouldn't do that review thing, unless they can report positively - it isn't cool to trash eachother's unpaid, labor-of-love, thousands of hours of eyebusting, headspinning, horribly tedious work. Every mod out there still involves someone's whole time and energy, and that is just learning how to try to get things to work.